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John Keenan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Where do you put the Rake?
« on: September 02, 2011, 05:00:07 PM »
Reading the who really walks all the time post Mark Johnson noted what bothers him is people who put the rake in a position where it can come into play. This raised a question where does the rake belong?

Some courses state to put the rake in the bunker some say do not put in bunker. Some have no policy or  are not very clear on advertising it. When a course is designed does the architect have views on this? Is there a place that is better than others for it? 

If there are no rules regarding the rake where do you leave it? I tend to leave it as I found it. If it was in the bunker I put it back in if out I leave it out.
The things a man has heard and seen are threads of life, and if he pulls them carefully from the confused distaff of memory, any who will can weave them into whatever garments of belief please them best.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where do you put the Rake?
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2011, 05:25:29 PM »
How about the trash bin! ;)

An opponent made a fast running shot from under a tree yesterday. If it had not hit the rake in the bunker, I believe it would have run through onto the green. Thank goodness for a rake in that case. ;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where do you put the Rake?
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2011, 05:28:31 PM »
How about the trash bin! ;)

An opponent made a fast running shot from under a tree yesterday. If it had not hit the rake in the bunker, I believe it would have run through onto the green. Thank goodness for a rake in that case. ;)


As a strong advocate of the high handicapper, do you realize how much harder bunker shots would be for the less skilled if the sand wasn't raked?



I generally leave them in the bunker.
H.P.S.

Dale Jackson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where do you put the Rake?
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2011, 05:37:45 PM »
Misc Decision 2 in the Decisions book recommends - but only recommends, it does not mandate - rakes be placed outside bunkers. 

It seems a trend to have courses ask that they be "T Boned", that is the rake head is placed in the bunker with the handle lying outside the bunker.  This  makes a lot of sense IMO.
I've seen an architecture, something new, that has been in my mind for years and I am glad to see a man with A.V. Macan's ability to bring it out. - Gene Sarazen

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where do you put the Rake?
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2011, 05:39:22 PM »
How about the trash bin! ;)

An opponent made a fast running shot from under a tree yesterday. If it had not hit the rake in the bunker, I believe it would have run through onto the green. Thank goodness for a rake in that case. ;)


As a strong advocate of the high handicapper, do you realize how much harder bunker shots would be for the less skilled if the sand wasn't raked?



I generally leave them in the bunker.

Don't you know that it is a crap shoot whether or not we get the ball out of the bunker, raked or unraked? All raking does is allow the highly skilled to treat a hazard as a nonhazard. For the average guy, it is always a hazard.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

John Keenan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where do you put the Rake?
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2011, 05:54:02 PM »
Dale

Curious why you think it makes sense to T-Bone the rake?  I would think in or out would be better.

The things a man has heard and seen are threads of life, and if he pulls them carefully from the confused distaff of memory, any who will can weave them into whatever garments of belief please them best.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where do you put the Rake?
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2011, 05:58:26 PM »
I think it is wise to ask the pro or a competent member where they prefer to have the rakes placed prior to a round on a new course.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where do you put the Rake?
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2011, 06:01:29 PM »
anywhere but on the back of a toro.
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where do you put the Rake?
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2011, 06:09:02 PM »
I've seen both, but out makes more sense to me.

A rake in the bunker can hold a ball up near the lip leaving strange difficult lies. While those are part of the game, I prefer to get those without any assistance from manmade objects.

Colin Macqueen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where do you put the Rake?
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2011, 06:12:35 PM »
Garland,
"............raked or unraked? All raking does is allow the highly skilled to treat a hazard as a nonhazard." And they call that progress!!

Cheers Colin
"Golf, thou art a gentle sprite, I owe thee much"
The Hielander

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where do you put the Rake?
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2011, 06:12:59 PM »
Out, on the side away from play, which is the opposite of the side they are usually put on.

Padraig Dooley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where do you put the Rake?
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2011, 06:26:10 PM »
Outside the bunker on a flat area parallel to play is where it will least disrupt play, however for maintenance this means somebody has to get off a machine to move the rake if it gets in the way.

So in the middle of a bunker on a flat area is a very good option.

One of the things that drives me bananas on a course is rakes left on grassy slopes, sandy slopes or worst of all handle out of bunker and teeth of rake just in bunker!!!!

There are painters who transform the sun to a yellow spot, but there are others who with the help of their art and their intelligence, transform a yellow spot into the sun.
  - Pablo Picasso

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where do you put the Rake?
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2011, 06:29:10 PM »
I prefer outside the bunker, out of the normal play area. You want to keep the slopes of bunkers as intact as possible, so place it near a natural entrance point. Do not put the rake it in a spot where a following player will encounter am awkward lie/shot, or be penalized because he can't find a spot to drop/place without penalty.

Josh Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where do you put the Rake?
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2011, 06:39:16 PM »
Inside the bunker with the handle within reach or resting just out.  I think it looks way better and saves our mowers and sprayers from having to get off the machine 136 x (2) times.  Saves man hours.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where do you put the Rake?
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2011, 06:50:21 PM »
Garland,

Bunkers are less of a hazard for better players because they are better players. If I stepped on a ball in a bunker you would have to be lucky to get it out on to the green while a better player would play the shot much better and more consistently.

Again, raking bunkers helps high handicaps a lot more than a better golfer.

Then of course if you can't get a ball out of a bunker regardless of it's condition multiple times in a round then you should either hot the practice green or head to the nearest par 3 course.
H.P.S.

Dale Jackson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where do you put the Rake?
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2011, 07:08:14 PM »
Dale

Curious why you think it makes sense to T-Bone the rake?  I would think in or out would be better.



It seem to me that T Boning greatly reduces the the chances of keeping a ball out of a bunker when it would otherwise go in and does not lead to the situation that leads the ruling bodies to recommend they be outside bunkers.  Here is the relevant decision.

Q. Should rakes be placed in or outside bunkers?

A. There is not a perfect answer for the position of rakes, but on balance it is felt there is less likelihood of an advantage or disadvantage to the player if rakes are placed outside of bunkers.

It may be argued that there is more likelihood of a ball being deflected into or kept out of a bunker if the rake is placed outside the bunker. It could also be argued that if the rake is in the bunker it is most unlikely that the ball will be deflected out of the bunker.
However, in practice, players who leave rakes in bunkers frequently leave them at the side which tends to stop a ball rolling into the flat part of the bunker, resulting in a much more difficult shot than would otherwise have been the case. This is most prevalent at a course where the bunkers are small. When the ball comes to rest on or against a rake in the bunker and the player must proceed under Rule 24-1, it may not be possible to replace the ball on the same spot or find a spot in the bunker which is not nearer the hole — see Decision 20-3d/2.

If rakes are left in the middle of the bunker, the only way to position them is to throw them into the bunker and this causes damage to the surface. Also, if a rake is in the middle of a large bunker, it is either not used or the player is obliged to rake a large area of the bunker, resulting in unnecessary delay.

Therefore, after considering all these aspects, it is recommended that rakes should be left outside bunkers in areas where they are least likely to affect the movement of the ball.

Ultimately, it is a matter for the Committee to decide where it wishes rakes to be placed.
I've seen an architecture, something new, that has been in my mind for years and I am glad to see a man with A.V. Macan's ability to bring it out. - Gene Sarazen

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where do you put the Rake?
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2011, 07:37:08 PM »
Garland,

Bunkers are less of a hazard for better players because they are better players. If I stepped on a ball in a bunker you would have to be lucky to get it out on to the green while a better player would play the shot much better and more consistently.

Again, raking bunkers helps high handicaps a lot more than a better golfer.

Then of course if you can't get a ball out of a bunker regardless of it's condition multiple times in a round then you should either hot the practice green or head to the nearest par 3 course.

If you stepped on a ball in the bunker, the better players could not get it out as well as they could most balls from the rough. If you have a ball sitting in a nicely raked bunker, the better players would get it out better than most balls from the rough.

If a ball is in a bunker, no matter the lie, the high handicapper is lucky to get it out on the green. If a ball is in the rough, no matter the lie, a high handicapper is unlucky not to get it out on the green.

How is that helping the high handicapper more than the low handicapper?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

astavrides

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where do you put the Rake?
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2011, 08:42:01 PM »
I've seen both, but out makes more sense to me.

A rake in the bunker can hold a ball up near the lip leaving strange difficult lies. While those are part of the game, I prefer to get those without any assistance from manmade objects.
+1.  This is also what the Dale says the Usga says in the reply 2 replies before mine.  This is so obvious to me, and has happened so many times to me that i don't even know why it is still a question.  The 'rake belongs in the bunkers' crowd is an extremely passionate one though.

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where do you put the Rake?
« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2011, 09:24:01 PM »
Garland,

Bunkers are less of a hazard for better players because they are better players. If I stepped on a ball in a bunker you would have to be lucky to get it out on to the green while a better player would play the shot much better and more consistently.

Again, raking bunkers helps high handicaps a lot more than a better golfer.

Then of course if you can't get a ball out of a bunker regardless of it's condition multiple times in a round then you should either hot the practice green or head to the nearest par 3 course.

If you stepped on a ball in the bunker, the better players could not get it out as well as they could most balls from the rough. If you have a ball sitting in a nicely raked bunker, the better players would get it out better than most balls from the rough.

If a ball is in a bunker, no matter the lie, the high handicapper is lucky to get it out on the green. If a ball is in the rough, no matter the lie, a high handicapper is unlucky not to get it out on the green.

How is that helping the high handicapper more than the low handicapper?


Garland,
If a ball in a bunker is stepped on, it is replaced with the lie recreated, so playing a stepped-on ball dloes not add to a logical argument :-\

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where do you put the Rake?
« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2011, 09:30:22 PM »
This is not something I worry about a lot.  Rakes have become an "integral part of the game" (in two ways, of course).  I generally try to put a rake close to where I found it, but it's impact on play is going to be somewhat random, like so many other things in golf.  The only argument I've heard that makes any sense is that leaving them in the bunker makes it easier on the mowing crews, who don't have to get off their machines and move the rakes out of the way before mowing close to the bunkers.  Or, if the course has specifically directed where/how the rakes should be placed, of course I'd try to follow the directions.

Greg Chambers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where do you put the Rake?
« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2011, 09:34:24 PM »
I say put the rakes in the rafters of the maintenance shop.  No need to clutter the course with them.  A couple of years ago I purposely didn't put the rakes out at the beginning of the season, just to see what the reaction would be.  It took a couple of weeks before anybody made any mention of the fact that they couldn't find a rake on a couple of their bunker shots.  Most people don't rake after themselves anyway, and when they do, they do such a bad job that they may well have not done it at all.
"It's good sportsmanship to not pick up lost golf balls while they are still rolling.”

Matthew Mollica

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where do you put the Rake?
« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2011, 10:53:54 PM »
I've never had anyone give me a valid explanation as to why rakes shouldn't be at the low point of the bunker,
with the head towards the green, and the handle along the line of play.

MM
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Ben Jarvis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where do you put the Rake?
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2011, 11:02:29 PM »
At our Club, we ask members to leave the rake at the base of the bunker, facing the direction of play.

When I caddied in Europe, we always left the rakes outside of the bunker, on the outerside of the hole, facing the direction of play.
Twitter: @BennyJarvis
Instagram: @bennyj08

Sam Morrow

Re: Where do you put the Rake?
« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2011, 11:05:11 PM »
I think it is wise to ask the pro or a competent member where they prefer to have the rakes placed prior to a round on a new course.

I agree, every club seems to have a different policy.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where do you put the Rake?
« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2011, 11:18:29 PM »
I like the T-bone for two reasons:

First, there is almost no rake handle on the ground to interfere with a rolling ball.

Second, you don't have to bend over as far to grab the handle.

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