Fading first courses

[Tom_Doak]

Tom - So I almost had it right!... You have projects going on at two different 36 hole facilities right now. One has both courses being built simultaneously, and the other is going to be the second to an already existing course. Do you think there are any advantages to doing it one way, or the other? Certainly economics and the affordability for a developer is a big issue, but would you say that architecturally one method leads to superior or more balanced architecture? I would guess the major issue, again, is how you split up the property and route the two courses.

Jaeger:

Normally, I would think if two architects are building new courses side by side at the same time, there would be more tendency (at least on the part of one of them) to compete with the other guy.  I don't think that's been a problem at Streamsong, because Bill and I worked on the routing together to try and give both courses an equal share of the best stuff, and because we don't worry much about competing with each other.  And if you look at the great 36-hole projects around the world, historically, many of them [Royal Melbourne, Winged Foot, etc.] were laid out by the same architect at the same time -- so perhaps competition is not so productive after all.

The other issue is that you want the courses to have variety from each other.  Tillinghast was able to do that at Winged Foot by making the East course a bit shorter and less demanding than the West [though certainly not a pushover].  But how many architects today would take the East course side of that equation?  That's essentially the path we took at Pacific Dunes -- we went shorter and prettier than Bandon Dunes -- and it's the same approach we are taking at Dismal River.

[Dan Herrmann]

Which is why I think Dismal River will be tremendously successful.  I think people will want to play both courses.  They'll both be unique and exciting.

[PCCraig]

Please name a great course known for hosting women's events.

Blackwolf Run
Pine Needles

[PCCraig]

I played Mid Pines and loved it.  I don't get Pine Needles as I am not impressed by courses that host ladies events.  On our outing to the Pine Needles resort I have to question why we played Mid Pines first on a 36 hole day.  Common sense would lead one to play the longer course first saving the shorter for when you are tired.  I'll give Pine Needles a pass under the guise of tiredness.  Can't remember a thing about the place.

I agree with your assessment of Pine Needles wholeheartedly. The lodge/clubhouse is very dated (and not in a good way...think Bushwood). The thing I liked best was the expansive range with tees outside of the little cottages. It was like a 270 degree range that must've been 400x300. That was neat. I also though the little "loop" of 4 practice holes was more memorable than the actual course.

David,

Really? I think Pine Needles is really good and a great example of Ross's work. What didn't you like about it? Not flashy enough? Just curious.

[Scott Stearns]

going back to the original post...At most resorts there seems to be a pecking order among courses, which is reinforced by advertising, pricing and/or policies.  Innisbrook has a good and a less good course.  Doral has a good, a less good and several that have not been updated at all.  TPC Sawgrass has one people travel to get to and one they get stuck playing. 

Even Kohler has played up Whistling vs. the Blackwolf Run courses. 

so nobody to my knowledge, tries to sell two courses as equal, much less four, the way Bandon does.  Maybe dorado, but they dont sell these as championship courses.

At Bandon, i think that some of the move away from Dunes, if there is some, is due to the newness "buzz" of Trails and Old Mac.  Also think that Pac Dunes' ranking, and the fact that it is shorter on the back side, create some demand to play that. 

I found Dunes to be the most difficult of the four to appreciate--i.e. understand where to play shots in order to create different options.    Also found it less fun as i was hitting longer clubs there than i did on the back side at Pacific.  But i also felt that if i had 10 rounds in on Dunes, i'd have a better appreciation of the course--ididint feel like i needed that much time on Pac Dunes or the others.  And if people are playing one-two rounds on each, then Dunes gets shortchaged by this.