[Scott Warren]

Mike,

Perth also happens to new one of the drier climates in Aus.

In Cairns the summer HI is 38C (106f). In west Sydney it is 35C (100f). There are plenty of places down here where those figures are typical and in those areas days of 40C+ are common in summer. And yet you don't see a whole lot of folks in carts.

Read my post again. In fact read both my previous posts in this thread. I don't give anyone grief for riding in a cart if that's what they want to do. To each their own. But I maintain that weather is being blamed where it ought not be.

[Jud_T]

GCA Outing- The ODG Cup- Now Open:

Location:  Furnace Creek Golf Club- Death Valley, CA

Date: TBD- Next July when the mercury tops 120 (remember it's a DRY heat!)

Format:  Players will walk and carry their bags, which must weigh at least 13 lbs.  14 club rule will be suspended for the tournament.  Carry as many as you can!!  Caddies or pullcarts will not be allowed.  Forecaddies will be permitted to speed play.  Shotgun start at 5 AM.  Players must complete each 18 hole loop in under 4 hours.  Last man standing wins bragging rights and a saline drip.  There will be Calcutta Wagering on who gets heat stroke first.  And before you all start IMing me, yes death counts as a win.  Jeez, it's Death Valley after all.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Scott,

As you wrote yourself, humidity is big factor.

You cannot compare two locations with the same temperature without factoring in humidity. As for the latitude, that's pretty irrelevant as the local climate depends on so many factors (location, whether land-locked, ocean drifts, etc.).

Take Khartoum (Sudan) for example, which is X degrees north and compare it to somewhere X degrees south. You'll find many tropical and humid locations at the same latitude south (e.g. Amazon jungle, Mozambique).

Last year I played a competition in 28-30C and about 60-70% humidity. It was tough going and I was happy that I had by push trolley with me. I can't imagine what 35C and 70% RH would be like, but I could understand it if one chose to take a cart.

You need to comapre apples with apples, and oranges with oranges. 

[Jeff Spittel]

Enjoy walking in the spring and fall, but it's hardly a prerequisite to having a good time. Most of the guys I play with never walk.

Carried the bag for the first time in a few months last night. Been a rough summer for doing anything outside in Houston.

[Brent Hutto]

Walking a golf course is not a test of manhood or how serious one is about the game. It's as much a habit as anything (as is riding in a golf cart). And like most habits, walking begets more walking. Riding in carts begets more riding in carts.

Someone who has spent a lifetime walking every time he plays golf, regardless of the heat and humidity will be conditioned for it up to a certain point. It can occasionally get hot and humid enough to kill even the most well conditioned golfer who overexerts. By the same token, if you always have ridden in a cart or if you've always ridden whenever it's hot and humid then just as certainly you will not find it possible to just up and walk 18 holes at 2pm on a day with 110F heat index.

So everyone seems to think the people with a different habit than themselves is either a pantywaist or an idiot. It's like an alcoholic and a stoner calling each other names.

[J Cabarcos]

First and foremost, I will say that I love to walk golf courses. I believe it is the best way to enjoy a round.  But living in Miami Beach, the humidity factor in the summers are off the charts. (worse if your in inland Florida) I am luckily that I spend 2 out to the 4 summer months away in cooler climates of the Northeast here in the States or in Northwest of Spain (cooler yet)  But when I am playing back in the South Florida summers, the combination of the heat (90-96 avg) and the humidity (80-100 avg) is downright brutal.  The "real feel" temp will be around 105-115)  Uggh!

As a point of comparison, I have walked the Black Course in Bethpage on a very hot New York afternoon in which it got up to 100 and I managed with a wet towel turban thingy on my head.  Why?  little if any humidity on Long Island that day.  I have played 36 holes on a cart at the PGA Courses at Port St Lucie, Florida in the dead of summer and I basically had to stop before heatstroke set in.

There is a reason why the Tours (PGA & Nationwide) don't stop in Florida in the Summer.  They would all wither away.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Brent

No, I cannot agree with you. It’s about playing golf, playing it the way it’s been played for 600 years, it’s about honouring the game.

It’s not about taking the easy way out. - by riding you exert yourself less so it will reflect upon your game. It’s an aid, it’s helping you keep fresh – that’s it’s a simple aid and in my book that’s nothing short of cheating. But do what you want, its legal but totally against the Spirit of the Game. If you enjoy or love the game why betray it by riding. Commitment or should we say a serious lack of it and let’s not forget that every scorecard submitted while riding a cart is not a true record of your round.

Melvyn

[Tim Leahy]

Brent

No, I cannot agree with you. It’s about playing golf, playing it the way it’s been played for 600 years, it’s about honouring the game.

It’s not about taking the easy way out. - by riding you exert yourself less so it will reflect upon your game. It’s an aid, it’s helping you keep fresh – that’s it’s a simple aid and in my book that’s nothing short of cheating. But do what you want, its legal but totally against the Spirit of the Game. If you enjoy or love the game why betray it by riding. Commitment or should we say a serious lack of it and let’s not forget that every scorecard submitted while riding a cart is not a true record of your round.

Melvyn

So Melvyn, you use hickory shafts and gutta percha balls then, because using modern equipment would be cheating right?

Walking a golf course is work. Now if you want to get your exercise that way, fine.  Buit I play golf for recreation and fun and it is far more fun for me to ride a cart than walk. If I didn't have two bad knees, I would probably walk more often but I still would take a cart because it makes the game more fun and less work.

[Kalen Braley]

Walking a golf course is not a test of manhood or how serious one is about the game. It's as much a habit as anything (as is riding in a golf cart). And like most habits, walking begets more walking. Riding in carts begets more riding in carts.

Someone who has spent a lifetime walking every time he plays golf, regardless of the heat and humidity will be conditioned for it up to a certain point. It can occasionally get hot and humid enough to kill even the most well conditioned golfer who overexerts. By the same token, if you always have ridden in a cart or if you've always ridden whenever it's hot and humid then just as certainly you will not find it possible to just up and walk 18 holes at 2pm on a day with 110F heat index.

So everyone seems to think the people with a different habit than themselves is either a pantywaist or an idiot. It's like an alcoholic and a stoner calling each other names.

Brent,

That may very well be the best post on this thread.  I think its well to avoid all forms of fanaticsm, at either end of the stick, and use common sense for the given context.

Nicely said.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tim

I stick to my comments, golf is a walking game  - its never been about riding - walking is golf.

Melvyn

PS  Sorry about the knees at least you have an excuse in a major medical ailment -  others riders can't be bothered to walk so are IMHO lazy
 

[J Cabarcos]

Brent

No, I cannot agree with you. It’s about playing golf, playing it the way it’s been played for 600 years, it’s about honouring the game.

It’s not about taking the easy way out. - by riding you exert yourself less so it will reflect upon your game. It’s an aid, it’s helping you keep fresh – that’s it’s a simple aid and in my book that’s nothing short of cheating. But do what you want, its legal but totally against the Spirit of the Game. If you enjoy or love the game why betray it by riding. Commitment or should we say a serious lack of it and let’s not forget that every scorecard submitted while riding a cart is not a true record of your round.

Melvyn

Melvyn,  I think your off with your point about scoring being better by riding a cart vs walking.  It has been my experience that my rounds either way result in practically the same score (+/- 4 strokes average).  Now if your point involves walking for four consecutive days, then you may have a point.  But do most of us do that ?  Are you suggesting we do that to prove our golf manhood ?   I do not think so.  We play out of enjoyment of the game, one way or or another there is simply no cheating or dishonor involved.   

I believe we need to promote the game of golf, not cull the ranks of current players.  Your strict philosophy may fly in Scotland, but in Florida where we have over one thousand golf courses it simply just is not feasible to walk year round.

[Melvyn Morrow]

JC

What are we promoting cart ball or Golf, if its golf, burn the carts. Walking in golf is the equivalent to humans breathing, it the life force of the game, kill that and the game in no longer golf but a weak variation of a once great game.

I do take you point but then I and my father have played in India, Africa and other parts of the tropics and never needed or wanted a ride, we knew the game we knew it was a walking game so we honoured the game by walking. Hot and humid yes but still playable.

I played with my father a week before he died on a golf course in Nigeria and it was hot but no carts, no sign of carts, you played golf so you had to walk.

Melvyn

[David Harshbarger]

Melvyn,

Your drumbeat was top of mind as I took my clubs off the cart looking out over the first hole at The Presidio.  No doubt it was a long walk, but afterwards, a playing partner commented on how impressed he was that I took on the hills afoot.  To me, that speaks to a latent understanding of the honorable nature of walking in golf.

Dave

[Bill Shamleffer]

1. Who walks 100% of the time?     Walk about 95% of the time.     (But only 3 riding rounds in the last 10 years.)

2. When you walk, do you carry your bag or pull it?     Carry.

3. How much of a factor does weather influence your decision?     None.

4. How much of a factor does your playing group influence your decision?     I only ride when I am a guest and the guest is riding, and there are no other walkers in the group.  I stopped playing in any charity and similar outings due to almost always having to ride.  (I find other ways to support those worthy charities.)

5. When you decide not to walk, are you glad there are cart paths?     No.

6. Supers, would you rather have wall to wall? paths only around greens/tees? none?     n/a

7. Do you still hate cart paths, even if they are really well hidden?     Yes.

8. In general, do you despise golfers who ride in carts?     I do despise driving by a short muni and seeing VERY MANY young guys (under age 35) all riding in carts.  (Now maybe a few of them have a medical condition that requires that they ride to play - but that might only explain a small percentage of the very many young cart riders on short easy to walk munis in moderate New England weather.)  It seems like more guys between the ages of 45-60 walk, than do guys under the age of 35.

9. Do you despise golfers who ride when the course is easily walk-able and the weather is perfect?     See #8.

10. Make up another question and answer it.     Do you support courses that make riding mandatory or that limit the times when walking is allowed, or which make walking very difficult because of the routing?     I take great efforts to avoid these courses.  I have cancelled rounds with friends when the course was riding only.

[Bill Seitz]

by riding you exert yourself less so it will reflect upon your game. It’s an aid, it’s helping you keep fresh – that’s it’s a simple aid and in my book that’s nothing short of cheating.

With regard to walking and the amount of energy exerted, in my experience, the difference between riding and walking with a caddie is negligible.  The difference between walking with a caddie and dragging your own bag is huge.  So I think boiling it down to "walking vs. riding" leaves out a big piece of the puzzle.  Hell, if you play a course that's cart path only, you practically do as much walking as you would with a caddie.

I walk most of the time, even when the cart is included in the greens fee, and I'm fortunate to still be able to drag it for 36 in a day (or even more, in the case of last weekend).  And for me, there are a lot of benefits to walking that go beyond exercise.  I have more time to focus on my next shot, and I feel I get a better course experience.  I play in some amateur events where carts are allowed, and I choose to walk because I think I play better when I do so.  But I don't think it's fair to say that carts are a big advantage, in terms of physical exertion, over just "walking".  I think you need to clarify whether you're dragging your own bag, or paying someone else to do so (which is fine, and a real treat on the rare occasions where I take a caddie).  Walking 18 with a caddie is easy for most people, and not all that much tougher (if at all) than riding.  Carrying is a whole 'nother ballgame. 

[Brent Hutto]

Bill,

Unless you're aware of some exercise physiology that I am not, the difference in energy expenditure between a 220 pound man walking five miles and the same 220 pound man walking five miles with 22 pounds of golf clubs on his back (or pushing it on a trolley) is miniscule. There is however a fairly substantial difference between that 220 pound man, with or without golf clubs, walking five miles versus riding in a cart for four miles plus walking one mile.

Now if you're talking cart paths only where the guy is walking damn near five miles anyway while also driving the cart another five miles, you may have a point. Although there is a slight effect of intermittent walking using a tiny bit less energy than the same walking done in a continuous stint. Negligible, though.

I suspect you are conflating muscle soreness or tiredness caused by the extra weight with actual energy expenditure. The subjective experience of "tiredness" is a poor correlate of energy consumed.

[John Kavanaugh]

Bill,

Unless you're aware of some exercise physiology that I am not, the difference in energy expenditure between a 220 pound man walking five miles and the same 220 pound man walking five miles with 22 pounds of golf clubs on his back (or pushing it on a trolley) is miniscule. There is however a fairly substantial difference between that 220 pound man, with or without golf clubs, walking five miles versus riding in a cart for four miles plus walking one mile.

Now if you're talking cart paths only where the guy is walking damn near five miles anyway while also driving the cart another five miles, you may have a point. Although there is a slight effect of intermittent walking using a tiny bit less energy than the same walking done in a continuous stint. Negligible, though.

I suspect you are conflating muscle soreness or tiredness caused by the extra weight with actual energy expenditure. The subjective experience of "tiredness" is a poor correlate of energy consumed.

Brent,

As a 285 pound man let me tell you that the problem is not carrying your bag it is bending over to pick it up.  Caddies also eliminate 500 yds of divot dancing and difficult bunker raking.  I recently walked with Bill for 18 holes when we both had caddies and we had equal ease given the fine course we were playing.  Our group even finished an hour earlier than the other players.  I could not have finished carrying my own bag.

My only instruction to a caddie is to eliminate my need to bend over.

[Brent Hutto]

John K,

I'm with you, big guy. On a cool morning like we had today I'm sure I could loop both straps over my shoulders and walk 18 holes with my golf bag, hardly breaking a sweat. Hoisting that bag onto and off my shoulder 30, 40, 50 times alternating with various "bend over" tasks is far more wear and tear than an extra 18-20 pounds load on my knees.

[Bill Seitz]

Bill,

Unless you're aware of some exercise physiology that I am not, the difference in energy expenditure between a 220 pound man walking five miles and the same 220 pound man walking five miles with 22 pounds of golf clubs on his back (or pushing it on a trolley) is miniscule. There is however a fairly substantial difference between that 220 pound man, with or without golf clubs, walking five miles versus riding in a cart for four miles plus walking one mile.

Now if you're talking cart paths only where the guy is walking damn near five miles anyway while also driving the cart another five miles, you may have a point. Although there is a slight effect of intermittent walking using a tiny bit less energy than the same walking done in a continuous stint. Negligible, though.

I suspect you are conflating muscle soreness or tiredness caused by the extra weight with actual energy expenditure. The subjective experience of "tiredness" is a poor correlate of energy consumed.

Brett, fair enough.  I'm strictly referring to my own anecdotal evidence.  The way I feel after walking 18 holes with a caddie is much closer to the way I feel after riding for 18 holes than it is to the way I feel after dragging my bag for 18 holes.  Again, that's simply my own experience, but as a fairly normal sized 38 year old, I imagine my experience isn't all that different from a lot of people.  

My post was in response to Melvyn's suggestion that the player who rides has a physical advantage over the player who walks, presumably because of how much more tired the player who walks ought to be (Melvyn, forgive me if I misunderstood).  I'm trying to note the distinction between simply walking and carrying.  I think the advantage a rider has over a player with a caddie is negligible.  I think the advantage a player with a caddie has over a dragger is much larger.  

To JK's point, it's actually interesting that he brings that up.  I was just relaying a similar story to someone the other day.  I walked 36 hole events in college.  I hadn't done so in years until the Midwest Mashie at Lawsonia earlier this year.  And just this last weekend, I walked and carried 27 holes Friday, 18 Saturday (also rode 18), 36 Sunday, 45 Monday, and 18 Tuesday, surprising even myself (especially on Monday).  But I've never felt as tired as I did about 14-15 years ago when I caddied for a friend in a Publinx sectional qualifier.  I was just physically beat down that day, and the course I played over the weekend (and Lawsonia for that matter) are much more difficult walks than the course that hosted the qualifier (Brookside in Pasadena, CA).  I don't know if it was from the extra activities that go with caddying, or the lack of mental fatigue balancing out the physical fatigue, but that day was brutal.  

With regard to the "bending over" factor, I walked mostly over the last weekend with a sunday bag with no stand.  The lack of weight compared to my Ping Hoofer was a real godsend, but I did notice that it got tougher to reach down and pick it up shot after shot.  Time to look for something as light-weight as possible with a stand. 

[Melvyn Morrow]

Bill

The rider will always be fresher than the Walker. That will find its way into performance. Add to that a normal 36 Hole day and you will see the difference. One reason why many of my friends and I do not play with riders.

Walk down to your local shops and back then ride be it in a car or cart and you will notice the difference or have you changed your name to Clarke Kent 

Melvyn 

[Bill Seitz]

Bill

The rider will always be fresher than the Walker. That will find its way into performance. Add to that a normal 36 Hole day and you will see the difference. One reason why many of my friends and I do not play with riders.

Walk down to your local shops and back then ride be it in a car or cart and you will notice the difference or have you changed your name to Clarke Kent 

Melvyn 

But again, Melvyn, you're not making a distinction between carrying and walking with a caddy.  One clearly makes a player more tired than another.  If you feel it's unfair for a player who walks to compete against a player who rides, where do you stand on carrying vs. hiring a carrier?  Should the player who carries refuse to play against a player with a caddy?

As an aside, I'm not sure that "freshness" is all its cracked up to be.  I'm always less tired at the beginning of a round than I am at the end.  I'm not always hitting the ball as well at the beginning of a round as I am at the end.  There's a lot of reasons for that, I'm sure,  If the advantages of having a few holes under ones belt so far outweigh the advantages of being fresh, then I think there's an argument to be made that the advantage of "freshness" is anything more than negligible.  As I mentioned before, I've played in plenty of qualifiers where carts were allowed, and many players use them.  I choose not too.  I don't think they confer a great deal of advantage, except maybe on particularly hot days. 

[Lloyd_Cole]

1. Who walks 100% of the time? I used to. These days if it helps the group I'll hop on. I prefer to have my bag with me for all shots so I keep it with me rather than putting it on the back of the cart. I have yet to ride when playing alone. I doubt that will ever happen. I'd stay home if I wasn't feeling well enough to walk.
2. When you walk, do you carry your bag or pull it? Carry.
3. How much of a factor does weather influence your decision? None. Riding through waterlogged land is disgraceful.
4. How much of a factor does your playing group influence your decision? See above.
5. When you decide not to walk, are you glad there are cart paths? I haven't thought about it.
6. Supers, would you rather have wall to wall? paths only around greens/tees? none? n/a
7. Do you still hate cart paths, even if they are really well hidden? Yes.
8. In general, do you despise golfers who ride in carts? No, not any more. In fact I feel sorry for the youngsters who haven't learned to enjoy the walk.
9. Do you despise golfers who ride when the course is easily walk-able and the weather is perfect? No. I'm I stupefied? Yes.

[Duncan Cheslett]

But again, Melvyn, you're not making a distinction between carrying and walking with a caddy.  

I'd be interested in Melvyn's take on this too.

Melvyn,

You're always going on about the damage done to the purity of the game by golfers riding in carts and using distance aids. Yet much the same advantage can be gained by paying a local expert to carry your clubs for you and to tell you the distance needed for each shot. Add in the advice he can give on course tactics and reading greens, and a very good argument can be made that a caddy gives a golfer a much bigger advantage than a cart and distance aid combined.

Why then, are you tolerant of the use of caddies? Tradition aside, there is no logic to it.

If carts and distance aids had been around in the 19th century, would you be accepting of them? You can bet your life that the Victorian golfer would have taken to both like a duck to water!

 

[Melvyn Morrow]

Duncan

I do not use Caddies, yes I believe that they have a place in the history of the game, originally to carry clubs for the rich, now they are meant to be a walking version of Google on a golf course.

The odd times I have taken a Caddie, and that adds up to less than five times in my life, mostly when I played with my father who has been dead these past 30 years.

As for Caddies, I am not against them but I feel they should remain for the purpose of only carrying ones clubs and should remain silent, not forgetting that like the golfer they WALK the course.

I understand why many use Caddies. Certainly if on a golfing holidays time is not with the player so playing with a Member or a Caddie allows the visitor some fast induction into the course he will not see again for many a year after the next day’s round. Nevertheless I am indeed against the transfer of information from an outside sources, be it electronic or by word of mouth, because IMHO it detracts from the pleasure that the golfer can obtain by discovering the wonders of the course for & by himself. 

It’s like using Sat Nav in the car. Its takes from the awareness of the driver or the awareness that is needed to drive while viewing the surroundings. Knowledge and experience is learnt and accumulated by the individual actually working matters out for him/herself. The way the human brain picks up information not realised at the time is a wonder to behold. Alas if information is passed to us without that need to have our brain cells firing on all cylinders we miss, sometimes the obvious because we are allowing others (gadgets or individuals) to take away the very key to learning and understanding. Sitting on a cart on its defined track missing out on the GCA because your line of vision is no long focused on the course; utilising the little grey cell to plot the next shot, not just a simple range finder moment but the ability for the human eye and brain to absorb all including defining distance in just one or two looks, not forgetting that the brain pick up far more than just the distance reading which is the sole reason source of information generated by an electronic gadget; ditto information from a third party be it a Caddie or another player, that information is third hand so therefore of little help to one’s brain compared to having an open uncluttered mind searching for  what it instinctively knows it needs to face the challenge of the game.

Its the level of involvement that defines pleasure, surrender some by utilising aids and you do yourself a disservice while at the same time weakens the overall  enjoyment of what is a great experience and game.

As for the 19th Century Masters, they understood the real beauty of the game, that underlying enjoyment not yet contaminated by the lazy attitudes of our modern society. We have taken a great game and weaken it nearly beyond recognition because the vast majority are not committed to it in the first place. It has to be watered down to their level of activity and if golfers question this they are hung out to dry because in our modern society it is acceptable to cheat, well that is if millions of others do the same. A wrong no matter how many others agree is still a wrong, many instinctively know that but are too weak to fight, fearing being excluded from the group.

Spend a day on TOC, utilise a Caddy, learn from him, but miss out on the first time experience, that super magical learning curve. Using a Caddie will explain much which as a golfer I want to learn for myself, that is the point of playing golf, me, my senses against the land, Nature and the designer, a game of walking while thinking, alas it is becoming a game for automatons (mechanical legs i.e. carts; eyes i.e. electronic gadgets; and brains i.e. verbal caddies) encouraged by our governing bodies.

Hope I have given you the answer you seek

Melvyn

PS You do the Victorians a great disservice by believing them to be as weak as many today - remembers it was a massive trek to get to golf courses outside ones area, train if lucky, the pony and trap or walk. How many would follow golf today if they had to undertake that to watch a golf match, yet thousands of Scotsmen did just that, real commitment. Something lacking in today's society??

[PCCraig]

by riding you exert yourself less so it will reflect upon your game. It’s an aid, it’s helping you keep fresh – that’s it’s a simple aid and in my book that’s nothing short of cheating.

Walking 18 with a caddie is easy for most people, and not all that much tougher (if at all) than riding.  Carrying is a whole 'nother ballgame. 

Bill -

This is very true. I enjoy walking and carrying, mostly because it's great, and "easy", exercise. I really don't get the same feeling of exertion when taking a caddy, not that that's an unenjoyable experience.

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