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TEPaul

Hidden Creek revisited
« on: December 13, 2001, 05:37:09 PM »
Visited Hidden Creek G.C., Egg Harbor, NJ at the tail end of the unusually warm fall in the Northeast about two weeks ago. Took quite a few snapshots but not the kind you can put on here--sorry!

On the walk was Roger Hansen, owner, Bill Coore, James Duncan, project manager and Jeff Riggs, super. The back was grassed first and has come in real well and the front was grassing well too with the weather. Course might open sometime late spring or early summer of 2002. The course's basic style is "heathland". Will be a par 71 and I'm not too sure of the yardage but probably a bit less than 7000 from the tips. Elevation change out there probably isn't much more than about 50ft. The natural site was smallish to medium size treed and such and some nice indigneous laurel etc. The fairways have excellent width and the hole corridors have good width off the fairways and from there the indigneous trees separate the holes with the occasional peak-thru and occasional slightly wider visibility here and there. As we've been discussing lately this is a course that takes advantage of the natural atmosphere of the site.

Personally, I would describe the basic look and feel of Hidden Creek as relatively low profile possibly much like the Heathlands (which I've never seen). The bunkers are more of Coore & Crenshaw's awesomely good rugged natural looking bunkering and in this case described to me as the "ridgy" variety which follows the basic "heathland" style.

Tee boxes are the rectangular variety and also very low profile (you'll like them Ran!). Again, fairways have considerable width and have interesting low profile contours that should move the ball gently (and maybe not so gently) every which way to Sunday. Fairways even have the occasional "turbo boost" and "anti-turbo boost" areas (another unique GCA architectural description for those not familiar with this site). The greens are a wide variety of  shapes, width, depth and internal contours of all kinds of imaginative combinations. Many of them have substantial chipping areas here and there with solid strategic ramifications. These green are going to be fun to play with  broadish breaks and swings combined with more intricate and complex contour areas. The green swale is also used in a variety of interesting ways on a number of the greens

Holes of real note would seem to be #2!, #4!!!, #5!, #6, #8!!!, #11!!, #12, #13, #16. It looks to me like Hidden Creek will be a course whose strategies are meningful but subtle and of the kind that are going to need to be experienced and discovered little by little! Again, #8 is a unique short, multi-optional, driveable (through a slot)  par 4 with a contour feature in the middle you won't believe! #4 is a gorgeous downhill 220yd redanish concept! #11 a 130yd semi blind green set on a rise and beautifully bunkered. There are a number of par 4s that are of bigtime length. The par 5s seem to me to be a bit of the "tacking" variety. I'm not certain but #9 could be around 600yds.

The owner, architects and super are going for an extremely natural look throughout the golf course with fescue roughs that will be what they naturally are. The bunkers will have real meaning (they already look to me like they have meaning) and they were talking seriously about even maintaining (or not particularly maintaining) the sand to be not that  consistent! Did you hear that?? This is what we've been hoping for! This golf course is designed for firm and fast conditions and also very much the run-in shot to the greens as an option!

The hope of those involved is for an extremely natural look and an array of natural color throughout! This is another wonderful creation from Coore & Crenshaw and a very different course than what they've done so far! My congratulations to Coore and Crenshaw and "The Boys" and to Jeff Riggs the super. Particularly to Roger Hansen--I hadn't realized it but Roger has waited a long time for this and good things must come to those who wait!

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: Hidden Creek revisited
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2001, 06:23:34 PM »
TEPaul:

Anyway you can offer comparisons to Blue Heron Pines / East and other Shore area courses. I know it's diffcult to say completely given that Hidden Creek has not officially opened.

Your thoughts are appreciated.

Do you see the course with the potential to move ahead of ACCC and Galloway??? ;)

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Hidden Creek revisited
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2001, 07:05:40 PM »
Matt:

I've played Blue Heron West (Kay) a bunch of times but I've never seen Blue Heron East (Smyers).

Hidden Creek has no water at all in play on the golf course (no water really in sight). I guess the "Creek" part of it is nicely "hidden" because I ain't never seen one there! The routing of Hidden Creek is absolutely flawless, totally connected and solid. It's as easy and interesting to walk as you will find. The course is sophisticated in its subtlety though, in my opinon, and definitely does not try to offer any "flash" or "Wow". It will be a hard course to score on probably although there is little chance to lose your ball unless you really hit it off the beam.

I don't know who you're suggesting is going to compare it to Galloway or ACCC or what they will say, but in my opinion it surpasses them for a variety of reasons!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hidden Creek revisited
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2001, 04:47:02 AM »
Tom, how would you characterize the property at Hidden Creek?

is there any explaining the recent unprecedented run of very good designs opening in New Jersey?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Hidden Creek revisited
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2001, 07:08:36 AM »
Ran:

How would I characterize the property of Hidden Creek? I'm not an expert on NJ but I would think the raw land and the indigenous vegetation is very representative of that part of NJ. Basically that part of NJ seems quite flat but Hidden Creek, I believe, has some natural elevation changes that although not dramatic are a bit more than normal out there.

I said the vegetation there was mostly pines but I don't think I'm right about that. I'm not an expert on trees either but what's there are certainly other types. The size and look of the indigenious trees and growth are typical of that area, I think. Your not going to see an enormous old oak or anything like that. The trees and vegetation are small to medium size (probably no more than 20-25ft and the natural trees and vegetation is quite dense. Probably not that different than Pine Valley once was.

The soil looks to be sandy but Jeff Riggs says that agronomically it isn't quite that simple and there are other soil conditions that are present there. They are going for the  rough fescue look off the fairways and I believe that's a bit experimental there with the summer heat and such and they are hoping it will work out as expected. There are other strains of vegetation they sort of placed or threw here and there in a natural random way and they are hoping they will take too. My understanding is that this whole vegetative process may be a bit of the "survival of the fittest" process which sounds cool to me. A great deal of the "feel" and style of the golf course is intended to be one of contrasting and natural coloration!

Basically the golf course and the constructed architecture fits in real well and real naturally with this particular site, in my opinion. That's what they certainly intended. The architectural shaping seems to me to be of the subtle type that concentrates on fairway contours, green contours but particularly on the "ridgy" bunker style. There is definitely no shaping on the hole corridor perimeters or if there is it's very  low and probably only drainage related. I saw this site preconstruction and it appears that they just cleared what they needed to and short of just laid in the golf course. You know Coore & Crenshaw, they are extremely site sensitive and this is just another example of that but with a different look from the others they've done.

It was explained to me that the basic bunker look and shapes are supposed to be representative of England's "heathland" style whether or not those original "heathland" bunkers were manmade or not. In this particular context this seems to be a very interesting idea and architecturally "interpretive" style in New Jersey. Apparently it just looked to them originally that this would be the most appropriate thing to do there and it looks to me that was an excellent call.

There is an area of low level quarrying on the site and they used that spot brilliantly as a flanking feature on the par 5 #3!! The 4th hole is the downhill redan concept and might have a tee to green elevation change of 25-30ft by far the most of any hole on the property. This particular hole will be a star--it's probably everyone's favorite at this point. Jeff Riggs favors #6 just because of the way the hole sets up so naturally and its basic flow. My favorite is the unusual #8 because it just looks to have options and playabilities up the gazoo to me, including the green.

There are some bunker features and rough features used as crossing features around the golf course and plenty of others that eat into the fairway lines. #8 has a center bunker in the middle of the basic LZ and Coore started laughing at me that I was probably going to call that "line of charm". Damn right I do--I think Behr himself would give it a two thumbs up!

Anyway, when you see it I would be interested to hear how accurate you think my general description was.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Geoff_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hidden Creek revisited
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2001, 08:27:24 AM »
I had the opportunity to walk this course and have to agree with Tom that there are definitely going to be some holes at Hidden Creek discussed, studied and argued over (in good fun) for a long time. He summed up the site well, though I was struck by the extreme variety of soils. What a nightmare this had to have been! You'll see every color of dirt imaginable out there. Like at Friar's Head, they have moved various soils around for different purposes. The heathery mounds have the worst soil, so they'll never get too lush, the sandy stuff is where you'd expect to find it, including on them really, really cool farm roads/cart paths. What a great subtle touch and so refreshing not to see any kind of hard surfaces for carts.

Ran, the site is a bit like Pinehurst in terms of elevation change and long, gentle rolls with a couple of slightly elevated tee shots. Really nice for golf, the kind a lot of architects might look at and say is flat or in need of some work to set up more dramatic possibilities. Matt, the only other course I saw that you asked about was ACCC, and they are just two different kinds of golf. The only way to put it, is that each serves a different clientele and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

I don't think the look of Hidden Creek will compare to anything really, it has its own style. Heathlands in some ways, but the bunkers figure to be an ongoing feature that will be of interest. Definitely different and certainly not comparable to anything in the neighborhood. If you like clean, shallow and gentle on the eye, Hidden Creek won't be your kind of place. These are nasty "sunken pits with raised faces."

I'd agree with Tom that holes 2, 4, 5, 8, 12 are the real standouts, as interesting as architecture can get. I'd also nominate 3, 6, 7, 10, 11, 13, 15 and 17 in the excellent/very interesting category. The greens are large and may fuel a renaissance toward building lmore arge greens, which I'd love to see. The size gave them an opportunity to build some incredible contours both bold and subtle. The tie-ins and chipping areas are wonderful, the strategy evident on some holes, more subtle on others and deceiving still on a few.

There is still a ways to go in developing the look of the course, particularly the heathery mounds, the bunker faces and the crusty fescue transitions. But I suspect that with Jeff Riggs and his asst. Pete, understanding the concept so well and being open to the "evolution" of things, it'll all come together rather quickly next spring, and then evolve in interesting ways during the next few years.
Geoff
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Hidden Creek revisited
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2001, 01:23:30 PM »
Tom/Geoff,

Thanks for the detailed report.  I can't think of a course I'm more excited to see in 2002, especially given that I'm a complete C&C novice.  The fact that it's just an hour or so away is simply icing on the cake.

Now, if the Cuscowilla trip ever gets rescheduled by Ran, et.al....  ;)  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: Hidden Creek revisited
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2001, 03:53:23 PM »
Ran:

The trend in New Jersey has been helped by a variety of factors.

First, the long economic boom has prompted the interest of many developers. Since 1987 the state has been cranking out courses of all different types. Being close to many top name designers has also been a plus.

Second, many of the old time courses are beginning to see that restoration work can be done to successfully elevate the inherent greatness in their designs -- the best example is Plainfield, to name just one prime course. I've also heard on the grapevine Somerset Hills is seriously considering an upgrading of their fine layout -- possibly adding 200 yards to the total layout with a few other features as well. More to follow on that topic in the next couple of days. Can't wait to see what George Bahto does to such a prime layout as The Knoll. Kudos to him and his team at Essex County for the work they are doing now. Kudos to RDM Management for their successful efforts at Forsgate / Banks Course in Jamesburg, NJ -- a real sleeper of a course to those who have neer played it.

Third, the state has some exquisite land in Warren and Hunterdon Counties, along the Pennsy border, that until recently has not been utilized. You have had a series of courses come forward in that area (i.e. The Architect's Club, Hawk Pointe, High Bridge Hills, etc.) and coming soon is the The Ridge at Back Brook (TF design). A few others are also looking at possible sites in the area.

The Shore area is also a hot zone. Private golf in ther area has come full speed ahead with the restoration of ACCC by Doak, Galloway National is a solid layout and now the push with C&C on Hidden Creek. I always wonder can great golf be achieved on such flat undistinguished land that is the hallmark of southeast NJ??? Can't wait to see what Hidden Creek will offer.

Still, the Garden State is more skewed towards the private clubs at the top of the pecking order. Public golf is moving up but few layouts are capable of competing with their private couterparts.

The sad part is that given the recession times we live in today, the pipeline for additional courses is becoming less so -- although there are possible major projects with development of golf in the Meadowlands (using past landfills) with four possible new courses. And, golf is even planned for Hudson County in Bayonne -- the first regular full-sized course although an actual opening is still a few years away.

We shall see ...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Hidden Creek revisited
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2001, 03:18:50 PM »
Ran/Matt,

Just to expand on Ran's question concerning new courses being built in NJ, along with Hidden Creek and Fazio's Ridge at Back Brook, 2002 looks to be a banner year on the public side as well.  Scheduled to open are;

Berkshire Valley - Roger Rulewich
Charleston Springs (South) - Mark Mungeam
Hunterdon County - Dan Schlegel (Ault & Clark)
McCullogh's Emerald Links - Stephen Kay
Mercer Oaks II - Brian Ault/Dan Schlegel
Renault Winery - Stephen Kay
River Winds - Ed Shearon
Shore Gate - Ron Fream
Water Wheel - Ian Scott-Taylor

Another one for folks in the PA region to look out for is Old Wales by Kelly Blake Moran near reading.

Finally, Maryland is almost as hot, with Keith Foster doing his first east coast design called River Marsh near Ocean City for the Hyatt people.



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Hidden Creek revisited
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2001, 06:33:30 PM »
A good golfclubatlas contributor was looking for this particular topic and said he couldn't find it so I'm bring it back to the top for him.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ET

Re: Hidden Creek revisited
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2002, 11:14:20 AM »
For Tom Paul - When are you going to visit Twisted Dune ? Archie and I are waiting for your comments (we can take it) ?
Tim DeBaufre
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Hidden Creek revisited
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2002, 12:52:01 PM »
Tim:

How're you? I was going to come down there the other day but it was a bit cold for me! Can't wait to come see it and play, and I've heard great things about Twisted Dune, from a few PVGC people too, so that ain't a bad recommendation.

Might have wait for some warmer weather though. Problem with me playing golf in the winter is I smoke too damn much and have for too long so my circulation is not great and if I really tried to rip one in the cold my hands might fly off!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Hidden Creek revisited
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2002, 01:18:13 PM »
Tom Paul,

We missed having you the other day at Twisted Dune.

Archie opened the course and we ended up playing a six-some with BillV, GeoffreyC, Brad Miller, Mike ?, Archie, and myself and had a blast.

I hope some of the guys I mentioned see this thread and weigh in with their opinions of the course.  

It was my second time there, and I wondered if it was truly as good as I thought during my initial visit.  

It is.  ;D



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Robert

Re: Hidden Creek revisited
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2002, 02:09:00 PM »
Tom and Geoff,
        How does C&C's effort compare to Friar's Head? :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hidden Creek revisited
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2002, 02:37:26 PM »
Empire Golf has really become the 800 pound gorilla of NJ CCFAD operations. When did they add Hartefeld - as their site now indicates?

Speaking of Empire - what do you all think of Eric Bergstol's work at Pine Barrens?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Brad Miller

Re: Hidden Creek revisited
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2002, 04:14:07 PM »
Mike, I really enjoyed the course and company. Archie has done quite a job creating a course that is such fun to play. Many of the holes called for and felt like the "ground" was the way to attack the second shot! Can't wait to play when it's FF! Easy to walk, cart paths well hidden, many dirt&sand. If there are any better public courses in NJ, can't wait to play them. Are there any??
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Hidden Creek revisited
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2002, 04:53:56 PM »
Brad,

Contrary to what Matt Ward might tell you, NO, there are not.   :D

Great seeing you Saturday!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: Hidden Creek revisited
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2002, 06:51:27 PM »
Mike:

Thanks in mentioning me, however, as I said in the article I did for Jersey Golfer I am a big fan of TD. I just would like to see the course when it is playing "firm and fast" as Archie wants it to play and when the greens are rolling in a like manner.

The course opened a bit premature, but that in no way takes away from the solid golf holes you play. I salute the vision of Archie in being so inventive with terrain that usually provides so little inspiration. TD is clearly inspirational.

You know in my article I mentioned the 14th, among others. What a superb driving hole and on top of that your approach shot must be utterly precise. There are a number of other top notch holes as well you know.

I'd be curious since all of the distinguished folks who were in attendance what number on the Doak scale would you give TD? Also what number for Galloway National and ACCC for those who have played them???

As far as what is the best public course in Jersey I have to say that TD is a solid contender for top honors. Right now I see it among the 3-4 best with a clear shot at the top. This year we are doing our biennial update on Jersey's best and obviously the public ratings are a part of that report. I'd like to get the feedback from a host of people on that question when the time for it occurs (probably not until mid-season).

TD is a wonderful addition to the Jersey golf scene and I'm looking forward to tackling it again this season. :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Hidden Creek revisited
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2002, 07:20:44 PM »
Matt,

Sure, I'll be forthcoming.

On the Doak Scale, 7.

I haven't played ACCC since Doak was there.  The "old" course was a mixed bag, probably coming out at 5.5.  I understand it's been considerably improved.

Hoping to get down to Galloway this year.

BillV....you can hop in here anytime.   ;)

BTW, Matt...I was just joshin' ya'.  I know you are a big fan of TD, but I have to get my digs in on Pine Hill.  Incidentally, I'd be happy to give you my ratings of public courses in NJ.  I'm pretty sure I've played all of the ones that warrant consideration.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hidden Creek revisited
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2002, 07:45:29 PM »
I was hoping to play TD this Friday with John Chassard (Lehigh's Superintendent) but not sure they are open.  John tried to reach Archie but hasn't yet connected.  I'm anxious to see the place.  May have to head elsewhere for now  :(
Hidden Creek sounds great.  I'm sure I'll play it this spring or summer.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

BillV

Re: Hidden Creek revisited
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2002, 11:22:37 PM »
To jump in here briefly as asked at this unsightly hour, I was terribly impressed by Twisted Dune and wondered why we never had a "Who is Archie Struthers" thread.  

Kudos to Archie.  I really let him have it right to his face with a huge laundry list of everything wrong with the course. ;) All kidding saide, I know mike Cirba loved it to death when it was screamin' fast this late summer and we did not have that on Saturday.  It was still very very impressive.

Humourous but true points

-Easily the most natural-looking unnatural course ever!  We all agreed a few dunes were a little too titty-pointed, but the detail work just on the dune shaping was tremendous.

-Width that would satisfy even the demands of Tom PAul even though I managed to hit #10 fairway from #11 and make par with a legitimate birdie putt.  The width off the tee also allowed for strategy, not just accommodation of different level players, making a real difference on the preferrred side.

-Interesting subtle contours and greens of real quality make for a great putting experience rather than wildness for its own sake as at the famous Ed Carmen thread course where I was shouted down by the thread's progenitor for suggesting such heresy.  These greens were all except one approachable by polo mallet from quite a distance.

-My pea-brain controlled swing found much trouble off several tees controlled by subtle suggestion leading to alas! actual chances for recovery shots. (Archie, honest it is all my own fault and I own it complletely!)  Love those recovery shots.

-A found tree stump adjacent to 13 tee brought audible appplause from me and the remaining tree on the 14th is set to be removed!  Thanks Archie for reading all my previous posts.  Trees are not necessary for strategy here.


So

width, strategy, fine meld, great unnatural (Who gives a shit) dunes that look great and no trees. Yipee.  But I refuse to publish a Doak or GW number this early or at all.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:01 PM by -1 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Hidden Creek revisited
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2002, 04:16:36 AM »
Did anyone take any photos, I'd love to see what the course looks like?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Hidden Creek revisited
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2002, 04:30:45 AM »
Tom MacWood,

There are a number of pictures on their website.  Unfortunately, they are NOT very good, and don't begin to capture the scale and natural unnaturalness of the place.  The course is visual striking, as well as a treat to play.

www.twisteddune.com
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hidden Creek revisited
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2002, 05:48:49 AM »
Actually, the photographs in Twisted Dunes website reminds me more of the dunes at Royal Birkdale as they seem to parallel and frame the holes. How often are the dunes used to dictate strategy?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Hidden Creek revisited
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2002, 06:17:58 AM »
BillV:

I read your remarks about Twisted Dune with great interest!

And with all the discussion recently about what appears natural and what doesn't, I was thinking about Twisted Dune as it relates to that subject.

I'm certainly interested as could be to see Twisted Dune, as I saw it under construction and I saw the enormous manufactured dunes which does give the course what I would call a "microcosim world" for golf much like Shadow Creek. In other words, the course closes out its natural surroundings (which may have been quite boring and devoid of anything interesting) and creates its own internal world.

This is certainly not a bad thing at all to me, and as Archie alluded to a while back is very much part of the reality of available sites today!

But then, of course, it becomes a matter of how and what the architect creates to make the course a "micrososim world" of golf. North Carolina in the Nevada desert? A enormous, rugged dunescape in the flattish land of New Jersey? It's all interesting stuff and interesting architectural choices. And the fact, to boot, that to a man, everyone I've talked with seems very much impressed with the way Twisted Dune plays and looks when you get on and inside the golf course.

However, where exactly the architect gets his inspiration for what he creates is also interesting--I guess this is what Pat would call "authorship" or the "authorship theory". And of course how the architect can make what he creates look natural somehow, although it may look natural to something thousands of miles away or even an ocean away, is also interesting! It sort of boils down to why we admire designers who stare at natural elements for long periods of time to grab the essence of them and what's natural about them when they try to emulate or copy them on a golf course.

Archie will be on here to answer all this soon, I'm sure, but I noticed you were vaguely critical of some of the manufactured dunes as a bit too "titty pointed". That's a subject we should discuss and explore. What you think is "titty pointed", what Archie thinks, and what I think or anyone else thinks, should be analyzed and compared!

If, for instance, some of those dunes you noticed look anything like the natural assets of say Heidi Klum, then I might put more money into Archie's greenfee coffers than otherwise and I might discount my opinion or your ability to architecturally analyze things too!

And If Archie's "titty-pointed" dunes and their inspiration really did derive from say staring at and studying the natural essence of say Heidi's aaah....., then I will get Rich Goodale back to the East to see whether he really does think this detailed area of architecture we talk about that he says is far too "runic", mysterious and not worth consideration, really is that way!

And I will also give Pat and his "authorship theory" a great deal more credit than previously!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »