Are Many Modern Greens Too Complex?

[Bryan Izatt]

Or, am I just a lousy putter?   

Last weekend in our club championship I shot a respectable 81 on Saturday, despite a 4 putt and 3 three putts.  On Sunday, the score was unprintable, but included 45 putts.

I'm blaming the complexity of the greens.

These two courses were designed by Hurdzan Fry within the last five years.  All the greens feature a lot of ridges, knobs, swales, false edges, valleys, slopes, noses, etc.  Essentially every contour known to man.  After playing the courses for nearly two years, I still cannot effectively read the greens.  They are too complex.

Looking at a line from both ends only confuses as it looks to break in different directions depending on which end you look from.  There are essentially no flat spots.  Even on three foot putts you might need to borrow 8 inches.

One favorite is a putt up over an angled ridge to a pin located on the back of the ridge.  Trying to gauge the speed to get it over the ridge and not run away down the other side is a skill I apparently don't have.

Another favorite is a pin in a valley where the valley slopes with the cant of the green down to the left.  The putt is diagonal down into the valley.  Rather than having the ball break down left with the cant of the green and valley, it actually breaks to the right and apparently uphill compared to the cant of the green and the valley.  Apparently the steepness of the valley wall and the diagonal angle overcomes the cant of the valley.  Way too complex. 

Some greens of this sort are entertaining.  Too many are too much.

End of rant.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Or, am I just a lousy putter?   

Last weekend in our club championship I shot a respectable 81 on Saturday, despite a 4 putt and 3 three putts.  On Sunday, the score was unprintable, but included 45 putts.

I'm blaming the complexity of the greens.

These two courses were designed by Hurdzan Fry within the last five years.  All the greens feature a lot of ridges, knobs, swales, false edges, valleys, slopes, noses, etc.  Essentially every contour known to man.  After playing the courses for nearly two years, I still cannot effectively read the greens.  They are too complex.

Looking at a line from both ends only confuses as it looks to break in different directions depending on which end you look from.  There are essentially no flat spots.  Even on three foot putts you might need to borrow 8 inches.

One favorite is a putt up over an angled ridge to a pin located on the back of the ridge.  Trying to gauge the speed to get it over the ridge and not run away down the other side is a skill I apparently don't have.

Another favorite is a pin in a valley where the valley slopes with the cant of the green down to the left.  The putt is diagonal down into the valley.  Rather than having the ball break down left with the cant of the green and valley, it actually breaks to the right and apparently uphill compared to the cant of the green and the valley.  Apparently the steepness of the valley wall and the diagonal angle overcomes the cant of the valley.  Way too complex. 

Some greens of this sort are entertaining.  Too many are too much.

End of rant.

45 putts is a lot. On one of my darkes days this year, I took 41 (7 three putts).

How many putts did your playing partners take? That might give you some idea if it's you or the greens that are at fault.

[Sean_A]

Bryan

I don't think I have ever come across a course with a large chunk of "unknowable" greens.  Usually when I gripe its more about the speed rather than the contours and slopes.  That said, I do recall the frustration of a large group of guys I brought over to play Grosse Ile some years ago.  It was readily apparent that my many years experience on those surfaces made a huge difference.  That said, some of the reads from these guys was incrediblly bad.  They just didn't pay enough attention to the lay of the land.  While the greens are challenging, they do make sense.  This is where I may have a beef with a designer.  Its okay to get goofy on a hole or two by designing counter to the lay of the land, but I don't want too much of that stuff.  I want the green to make sense with its surrounds.  Your predicament sounds wild and I hope I never come across that sort of course.

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

I think people think they like fast greens but in reality they make the putts add up. I think some modern greens have got to complex and its obviously something in vogue at the moment. We are in the entertainments business and are about making it enjoyable, it can definetly get annoying putting up tiers and steps or have shots swing off into run offs, swales and hazards, but you do need some thats for you or you border dull.

[Michael Moore]

Bryan -

There was an excellent thread on this topic in 2006, with a detailed analysis by a couple of architects and some bloviating from the sidelines. JakaB was not at the top of his game, but as usual he said a lot with a little.

I am afraid we are beginning to see courses built for raters that suck for the members.  The formula to make one time visitors happy that are too cool for the golfing room is killing the everyday player who would love to grow old at a club.  Nobody eats pheasant and caviar everyday..or wants to.

Click on that link and see what a great discussion board this is.

[Tom ORourke]

A friend of mine, a 5 or 6 handicap, just played in the member - guest at the Broadmoor. They started with 9 holes where he had 23 putts. He claims that some of them looked like they were dying in the edge, and then kept going until his next putt was from 10 - 15 feet. I think green severity should be proportionate to the shot to the green. A short shot that a decent player should have a chance at hitting the proper area of the green deserves a challenge on the green. But I have played 440 yard uphill dogleg par 4s where the green had 3 levels, and it was imposisble to hit the proper level with a 3 iron. Some of the old Ross, Flynn, and Tillinghast greens are just about as difficult as new greens. I think that you may not see as many courses with vanilla greens as before, but I do not think difficult greens are new. I think there are just more of them now. And on some holes that do not need them.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bryan,

As Bobby Jones stated, "there's golf and then there's tournament golf" and boy was he right about that.

Tournament golf, probably more so medal play, brings a unique pressure to the play of the game.

Obviously, that pressure manifested itself in your putting.

It's not the greens, it's your mind.

I truly believe that that's what seperates the great ones from the good ones from the fair ones, "the mind"  The ability to perform under pressure.

I"ll bet if we played the next day, just for the fun of it, your putting would be fine, but, with the pressure of the event, your mind, not your putter betrayed you.

I had the same thing happen to me qualifying for the USGA Senior Am,  I had four 3 putts, sometimes missing 1.5 footers and I missed two 4 footers for up and downs and missed by one stroke.  My putting stroke was nothing more than an extension of my mind set, which on that particular day wasn't good when it came to putting.

Pressure and your mind, not green complexes and your putting stroke are the problem.

Heresy of heresies, I'm thinking about trying the long putter.
I still putt well from a distance as my distance control remains excellent.  I just can't see the line, I can't line up on my intended line and I'm more fearful of a three footer than a ten footer.

Just wait until you get to 70, it won't get better unless you conquer your mind

[Bryan Izatt]

Patrick,

Yes, it's in my head too, or even maybe mainly, but there is still a lot of complexity to these greens.  Come up some time and I'll show you.

I've tried the belly putter in the past and it didn't help much.  Reverted to a regular putter.  If you can't read the line or gauge the pace, no putter will help.  On the complex greens the misjudgements on line or pace lead to 6 or 8 or 10 footers rather than 3 footers. 

I did play the next day, not under pressure, but then they had the pins set up for crazy pins mens night, so it was another frustrating day.   

[Mark Saltzman]

No. I have not seen a modern course with greens that are too complex. For some, courses like Ballybeal and Aldarra would give that impression. I find thatmost modern courses have greensthat pale in complexity to many modern courses, which is likely theresult of the archie's recognition of modern green speeds and the word "unfair". I don't think there are many (any?) courses that greens as complex as ones like those at Oakland hills south.

[John Kavanaugh]

No. I have not seen a modern course with greens that are too complex. For some, courses like Ballybeal and Aldarra would give that impression. I find thatmost modern courses have greensthat pale in complexity to many modern courses, which is likely theresult of the archie's recognition of modern green speeds and the word "unfair". I don't think there are many (any?) courses that greens as complex as ones like those at Oakland hills south.

Mark,

I found the greens at The Pines course at The Prairie Club too difficult for me in some spots.  I know your opinion of the course, what did you think of the greens?

[Mark Saltzman]

No. I have not seen a modern course with greens that are too complex. For some, courses like Ballybeal and Aldarra would give that impression. I find thatmost modern courses have greensthat pale in complexity to many modern courses, which is likely theresult of the archie's recognition of modern green speeds and the word "unfair". I don't think there are many (any?) courses that greens as complex as ones like those at Oakland hills south.

Mark,

I found the greens at The Pines course at The Prairie Club too difficult for me in some spots.  I know your opinion of the course, what did you think of the greens?

John,

I'd agree with you there. While many of the greens were fairly tame, there were certain greens and in particular certain spots on some greens that may have been a bit too much. In particular, the mini/bowl on the right side of 5 green and most of 9 and 10 green come to mind. But still, as a whole, I don't think the greens at the Pines are too complex. I got the feeling that theOP was describing a course where hole after hole he was dealing with wild greens. Many courses have one or two greens that could be on the excessive side, but theyre fine when taken with the whole.

Dismal obviously had too many greens that were too complex (I would argue the remaininggreens are still complex, but within reason) and look what happened, they got blown up! Greens that are too comPlexare just rarely found in modern golf.

And one green I think is too complex is 2 at SHGC, but I seem to be alone on this planet with that thought.

[Peter Pallotta]

Bryan - from what I remember seeing, there is a lot of movement in the land/site at your home course in general, not just on/around the greens. I think this is something Sean's referring too - the question of whether on a site/course like BH, the architects played one too many tricks in regards to creating the green contours not along the general site countors but against them...in short, whether or not there is a touch too much deliberate deception going on. Maybe it's that...but of course, maybe Pat is right and it's all in your head

Peter

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

Yes, it's in my head too, or even maybe mainly, but there is still a lot of complexity to these greens.  Come up some time and I'll show you.

I've tried the belly putter in the past and it didn't help much.  Reverted to a regular putter.  If you can't read the line or gauge the pace, no putter will help.  On the complex greens the misjudgements on line or pace lead to 6 or 8 or 10 footers rather than 3 footers. 

Bryan, while I was putting tonight, two fellows came over to talk to me.  Coincidently, they had both recently acquired "EDEL" putters>

Evidently, these putters are custom fitted.  They use a laser to see how you naturally line up and compensate by adjusting the putter.

I line up too far to the left, thus I miss many putts left.  It's not that my stroke is bad, or that my distance control is bad, but, my alignment is terrible.  A lot of putting is about confidence, but, if you're alignment is wrong, it's more than difficult to be a good putter, consisitently.

I can judge distance very well, and I can read putts fairly well, but, I line up too far to the left and that's a real problem and I don't know how you correct it.  I've gone to getting behind the putter blade, lining it up, then taking my stance.  That seems to be working well, but, it looks awfully feminine.

I did play the next day, not under pressure, but then they had the pins set up for crazy pins mens night, so it was another frustrating day.   

Try lining the putter blade up from behind the putter blade, it will make a difference.

[JC Jones]

My experience with classic courses vs modern courses is that the classic courses with wild greens are much more subtle.  Many of the greens at Crystal Downs are as crazy as it gets and yet they aren't as patently obvious in their wildness as some of the modern courses.  Perhaps they used the natural slope/scale/grade of the land (outside the green) better.  I think about #2 at Crystal Downs which doesn't appear very severe and yet if you drop a ball at the back of the green it can easily roll off the front.

Many modern courses have to create their wildness because what they are doing is contrary to the natural grade of the land.

[Tom_Doak]

My experience with classic courses vs modern courses is that the classic courses with wild greens are much more subtle.  Many of the greens at Crystal Downs are as crazy as it gets and yet they aren't as patently obvious in their wildness as some of the modern courses.  Perhaps they used the natural slope/scale/grade of the land (outside the green) better.  I think about #2 at Crystal Downs which doesn't appear very severe and yet if you drop a ball at the back of the green it can easily roll off the front.

Many modern courses have to create their wildness because what they are doing is contrary to the natural grade of the land.

JC:

This is true, but you've got the cause and effect wrong.

Many of the older courses' greens are severe because of the general tilt of the green combined with more subtle changes.  That second green at Crystal Downs has five feet of fall from the back right to the front, in a little over 100 feet of length, so the general tilt is 5%.  Within that area, it ranges from 7% to 2% ... so the changes are fairly subtle, but they still yield many spots where you can't put the hole.

Modern greens seldom have more than 1% or 2% of overall tilt, because architects know that anything over 3% is going to be an unfair hole location with the greens at 12 on the Stimpmeter.  And if the general tilt of the green is only 1%, a portion that is 5% or 7% is going to look contrary to the grade of the land, as you describe.

[Peter Galea]

I line up too far to the left, thus I miss many putts left.  It's not that my stroke is bad, or that my distance control is bad, but, my alignment is terrible. 

For alignment problems, I swear by the mirror.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuavloz1Pi8&feature=related

[Bryan Izatt]

JC, Tom,

I'm not sure about this concept of "contrary to the natural grade of the land".  Are you suggesting that older courses have greens that are generally canted with no internal movement?  I was thinking of St Georges in Toronto, site of last year's Canadian Open or Hamilton, site of previous Opens.  Their greens looked severely canted and I thought that they would challenge the pros.  But, they didn't.  Seems that they can handle big breaker putts as long as there are no other interacting features.

In the modern greens I'm thinking of, there is often a general slope the the green site that is then modified with knobs, noses, ridges, swales etc.  that alter the general grade of the land.  The knobs, ridges etc may or may not be subtle, but their interaction can be.  and the results of a misread can be very large.

[Bryan Izatt]

Patrick,

Seems you're in good company if you switch to a long putter - Mickelson is reportedly switching.

Do you wear glasses.  They can affect alignment.  My multi-focals really distort around the edges when I'm looking sideways at the hole. 

I use a so-called cheater line to align the ball.    Not sure if it's any better than your aligning the putter face from behind the ball. 

Have you tried side saddle for short putts?