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John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Fading first courses
« on: September 01, 2011, 10:15:36 AM »
I love Bandon Dunes and the current course at Dismal River but never bothered playing Pinehurst #1.  I can't imagine not playing both courses at Dismal an equal amount over my remaining life.  Time will tell.  I do have a gut feeling that at least amongst people that I know Bandon Dunes is fading from their play list year after year.  What are some other examples of clubs or resorts with multiple courses and how has the dichotomy of play evolved over the years?

It's also just a guess but I do believe that in 20 years play at Bandon Dunes will be back up, if it isn't already.  The location of the first tee is too good to pass up.

David Cronheim

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fading first courses
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2011, 10:18:39 AM »
I love Bandon Dunes and the current course at Dismal River but never bothered playing Pinehurst #1.  I can't imagine not playing both courses at Dismal an equal amount over my remaining life.  Time will tell.  I do have a gut feeling that at least amongst people that I know Bandon Dunes is fading from their play list year after year.  What are some other examples of clubs or resorts with multiple courses and how has the dichotomy of play evolved over the years?

It's also just a guess but I do believe that in 20 years play at Bandon Dunes will be back up, if it isn't already.  The location of the first tee is too good to pass up.

I have played #1 at Pinehurst. You're not missing much. Modern equipment has really undone what was an interesting Ross design. I think I shot 71 (+1 if I recall) and barely broke a sweat. The 18th is a par 5 of under 450 yards. It's a shame. If you're ever in Pinehurst, don't pass up Mid Pines (across the street from Pine Needles) - it's an old Ross design that's quite playable and sporty.
Check out my golf law blog - Tee, Esq.

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fading first courses
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2011, 10:24:24 AM »
Would the courses at The Homestead fit this description?

When I was there The Old was wide open, but big bro The Cascades had a pretty full tee sheet.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fading first courses
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2011, 10:25:22 AM »
Ever the contrarian, I guess, but I really liked Pinehurst #1, especially as a breather round after getting slapped around on #2 or one of the other tougher courses.  I felt that #1 was relatively unspoiled, simple and very beautiful in spots.  I rather liked the three-wood wedge holes and fondly remember a short par three on the front that was visually reminiscent of #12 at ANGC.  I wouldn't travel to play this course, but the distance from #2 to #1 ain't that great if you're already there.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fading first courses
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2011, 10:27:26 AM »
I played Mid Pines and loved it.  I don't get Pine Needles as I am not impressed by courses that host ladies events.  On our outing to the Pine Needles resort I have to question why we played Mid Pines first on a 36 hole day.  Common sense would lead one to play the longer course first saving the shorter for when you are tired.  I'll give Pine Needles a pass under the guise of tiredness.  Can't remember a thing about the place.

Anthony Gray

Re: Fading first courses
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2011, 10:28:02 AM »

  What did it for me was the gorse removal at Bandon Dunes. I think the course lost alot of charm and character. I've been to Pinehurst three times and only played No 2. Never played The Links course at Casa De Campo or the Eden at St Andrews. If I am  traveling I want to experience the best. Never played Spanish Bay and Spyglass once. Why would I play

  Anthony


David Cronheim

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fading first courses
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2011, 10:39:18 AM »
I played Mid Pines and loved it.  I don't get Pine Needles as I am not impressed by courses that host ladies events.  On our outing to the Pine Needles resort I have to question why we played Mid Pines first on a 36 hole day.  Common sense would lead one to play the longer course first saving the shorter for when you are tired.  I'll give Pine Needles a pass under the guise of tiredness.  Can't remember a thing about the place.

I agree with your assessment of Pine Needles wholeheartedly. The lodge/clubhouse is very dated (and not in a good way...think Bushwood). The thing I liked best was the expansive range with tees outside of the little cottages. It was like a 270 degree range that must've been 400x300. That was neat. I also though the little "loop" of 4 practice holes was more memorable than the actual course.
Check out my golf law blog - Tee, Esq.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fading first courses
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2011, 10:52:05 AM »
I don't get Pine Needles as I am not impressed by courses that host ladies events.

then I guess you're also not particularly impressed with:

Oakmont
Prarie Dunes
Plainfield
Baltusrol
Winged Foot East
Carnoustie
Royal Birkdale
Royal Lytham
Sunningdale
TOC
Turnberry
The Country Club
Pinehurst
Pasatiempo
Merion
LACC
Oakland Hills
Essex County
Chicago
Shinnecock

 ;D
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Anthony Gray

Re: Fading first courses
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2011, 10:53:15 AM »


  John,

  Do you really think you won't favor one course over the other at Dismal?

  Anthony


John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fading first courses
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2011, 11:13:20 AM »


  John,

  Do you really think you won't favor one course over the other at Dismal?

  Anthony



I said play, not favor.  I believe I will play them an equal amount.  I will have to wait to see which is my favorite.  You will no doubt enjoy the second course more if for no other fact than that people will be able to see you from the fire pit.  I am starting to believe it is going to be a natural transition to play the Nicklaus course first and finish the day at the Doak.  Jack in the morning, Doak in the evening makes for a happy boy.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fading first courses
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2011, 11:26:28 AM »
I don't get Pine Needles as I am not impressed by courses that host ladies events.

then I guess you're also not particularly impressed with:

Oakmont
Prarie Dunes
Plainfield
Baltusrol
Winged Foot East
Carnoustie
Royal Birkdale
Royal Lytham
Sunningdale
TOC
Turnberry
The Country Club
Pinehurst
Pasatiempo
Merion
LACC
Oakland Hills
Essex County
Chicago
Shinnecock

 ;D

I should have said "only" host ladies events.  I was also mildly unimpressed when I played the Dinah Shore course in Palm Springs.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fading first courses
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2011, 01:54:40 PM »
I would be surprised if, among the general population of guests, Bandon Dunes has faded in popularity.  If so, that is a big change from a few years ago when it was very popular.

David Cronheim

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fading first courses
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2011, 04:06:47 PM »
I'm going to disagree with the comment that courses that host women's events aren't up to snuff. On the whole, I prefer courses that host men's events. However, I've had some wonderful rounds at courses that hosted women's events. Perhaps they're a touch easier and I score better.

The average male golfer who hits it about as far as female pros, so playing a "women's" major course would be a more appropriate test than playing the tips at Oakmont...
Check out my golf law blog - Tee, Esq.

Kyle Harris

Re: Fading first courses
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2011, 07:22:45 PM »
I'm going to disagree with the comment that courses that host women's events aren't up to snuff.

Who said this?

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fading first courses
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2011, 07:42:23 PM »
I'm going to disagree with the comment that courses that host women's events aren't up to snuff.

Who said this?

Here is the quote, words weren't the same but the basic concept is the same:

Quote
I am not impressed by courses that host ladies events

Kyle Harris

Re: Fading first courses
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2011, 07:56:30 PM »
I'm going to disagree with the comment that courses that host women's events aren't up to snuff.

Who said this?

Here is the quote, words weren't the same but the basic concept is the same:

Quote
I am not impressed by courses that host ladies events

The former is a qualitative statement.

The latter is a statement of personal taste.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fading first courses
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2011, 08:29:22 PM »
Please name a great course known for hosting women's events.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fading first courses
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2011, 08:30:59 PM »
The Orchards?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fading first courses
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2011, 09:06:27 PM »
On the subject of women's events/courses: I dare anyone on this board who loves classic golf architecture to say that would have Zero interest in playing Women's National Golf and Tennis designed by Emmet and developed by Marion Hollins. Also, you will be able to add Sebonack to the list as well shortly.


Back to the real subject of "fading firsts"... Obviously the OLD course is a major exception. Pebble would also be another one. I dont know the time lines at Kiawah or Kohler, but I'd assume the "championship" courses get more play... Aside from that, I have definitely heard from Mr Doak before that it normally is preferable to be the 2nd one in. From what I remember and understood the reasoning had much to do with taking a lot of the guess work out of the property/site. There are also clearly different expectations for both architect and developer.

Mike Sweeney

Re: Fading first courses
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2011, 10:17:01 PM »
Please name a great course known for hosting women's events.

Essex County CC - Mass

Sebonack - soon to host

Somerset Hills

The Orchards

Prairie Dunes - has hosted men's too

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fading first courses
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2011, 11:49:41 PM »
whoa!Pine Needles is on my world top 10 list. just the right amount of elevation change.I don't care for real estate courses generally,but this one overcomes.

Andy Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fading first courses
« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2011, 12:08:05 AM »
Blackwolf Run old (composite) is a fine course in the Ladies' rota.

Andy Shulman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fading first courses
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2011, 12:34:05 AM »
Put me down for another vote for Blackwolf Run (Composite), which I played last fall.  In addition to those already mentioned - several of which are profiled in the Courses By Country section - there's also the Broadmoor, Saucon Valley and Pumpkin Ridge (Witch Hollow).  Obviously, the "greatness" of any of these is subject to debate.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Fading first courses
« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2011, 09:33:18 AM »
Aside from that, I have definitely heard from Mr Doak before that it normally is preferable to be the 2nd one in. From what I remember and understood the reasoning had much to do with taking a lot of the guess work out of the property/site. There are also clearly different expectations for both architect and developer.


Jaeger:

David Kidd and I were at a promotional event in Bandon years ago, and when someone asked if we would do anything differently with our courses in hindsight, David, right away, said "I'd go second," which drew a big laugh.

Normally, that's not really the case, as the first architect gets his choice of property to work with.  Bandon is an exception to that rule, because Mr. Keiser didn't own the land for Pacific Dunes or Old Macdonald when David started the original course.  [Blackwolf Run is another exception -- Mr. Kohler wouldn't let Mr. Dye work on the land for the middle holes of the River course until much later.]

The easy part of going second is that the other architect has figured out what's difficult about the site -- in Bandon, that was how not to clear the gorse.  Plus, it's a lot easier to eat and sleep at the Bandon Dunes Resort or Barnbougle or the lodges at Dismal River, than it is to go back to a dingy rental home several miles from the site.

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fading first courses
« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2011, 05:23:58 PM »
Tom - So I almost had it right!... You have projects going on at two different 36 hole facilities right now. One has both courses being built simultaneously, and the other is going to be the second to an already existing course. Do you think there are any advantages to doing it one way, or the other? Certainly economics and the affordability for a developer is a big issue, but would you say that architecturally one method leads to superior or more balanced architecture? I would guess the major issue, again, is how you split up the property and route the two courses.

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