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Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
I realise that I have visited many courses just once to write about them. Our god, Ran Morrissett, does it for many courses. Can you get it right on a single visit or should you plat there umpteen times? Of the great courses I can only number TOC and Ganton among those I have played more than ten times. Am I, then, a poseur?

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many times do you have to play a course to know it's great....?
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2011, 06:11:16 PM »
Perhaps that is impossible to answer.

I can get a great feel regarding if a course has the potential to be great, but perhaps I can only tell if it is very good or bad after one round.

A great course should be able to hold a golfer's interest for life.  I could see The Old Course doing that, but I've only played it once...so I don't know that for sure.  I think NGLA could hold someone's interest for life, especially with multiple pin placements on those greens...as it would be vastly different to attack some of those holes with different pins and, therefore, interesting day in and day out.  As far as I can tell, but I've only played it twice.

Regardless, if a course can't hold your interest for one round, you know it isn't great.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many times do you have to play a course to know it's great....?
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2011, 06:32:46 PM »
I think you should be able to "get it right" on the basis of single visit, if you have a good enough eye and sufficient imagination.

Of course, I suppose it depends on your definition of "great." My threshold for "great" is probably lower than many others'.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many times do you have to play a course to know it's great....?
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2011, 06:37:09 PM »
Mark

When you put it that way, I think I have only played one course I consider great more than 10 times and I needed that back end five to consider it great.  

I think for me its usually the other way around.  How many times do I need to play a course before I know its not great?  There are so many courses on that edge and I usually go against the close calls.  For instance, I have dickered on Pennard and Beau Desert for many years.  I love them both and they are among my true favourites, but unless a few things change I don't think either course is great.  However, that doesn't really matter to me.  They are both good enough for me to enjoy the rest of my days.  

Ciao
« Last Edit: August 31, 2011, 06:49:30 PM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many times do you have to play a course to know it's great....?
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2011, 06:58:49 PM »
If it takes you more than three holes to sense something is stirring in your heart then you are wasting your time and looking in vain. And if you need to go back five times to figure it out you're wasting the owner's tee sheet.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many times do you have to play a course to know it's great....?
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2011, 07:28:33 PM »
Wow Brad, very confident of yourself.  Of course some of that may be down to playing a lot of great courses.  I think I have played less than 10 courses which I knew was a great course before I finished the round. All the other courses I believe to be great are still up for grabs in mind.

Ciao  
« Last Edit: August 31, 2011, 07:31:29 PM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many times do you have to play a course to know it's great....?
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2011, 07:39:26 PM »
Sean...

what courses do you believe are great?  why haven't you proclaimed them great yet?
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many times do you have to play a course to know it's great....?
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2011, 07:49:04 PM »
Mac

The courses I knew were great right away with no debate are St Enodoc, Lahinch, Prestwick, Merion, Ballybunion, Sandwich and Kiawah. 

There are plenty more I think are great, but I don't know well enough to be sure and can see arguments for them not being great.  I just don't believe there are that many great courses out there - not in my experience anyway.  But as I said earlier, I am not looking for great; good and interesting at a fair price is plenty for me. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many times do you have to play a course to know it's great....?
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2011, 07:50:45 PM »
I haven't played it, but just seeing the name St. Enodoc brings a smile to my face.  I can't wait to get out there someday.  It sure looks great!!

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Keith OHalloran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many times do you have to play a course to know it's great....?
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2011, 07:52:41 PM »
I usually know if a course is great before I play it. I just check the ratings.  ;D

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many times do you have to play a course to know it's great....?
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2011, 08:06:47 PM »

If it takes you more than three holes to sense something is stirring in your heart then you are wasting your time and looking in vain. And if you need to go back five times to figure it out you're wasting the owner's tee sheet.



Mindbending!!!

Carl Rogers

Re: How many times do you have to play a course to know it's great....?
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2011, 08:18:02 PM »
Haven't all the great courses been identified?  Sort of like Art History Class? .....

And if you happen to play one of them, the issue becomes whether you agree it is great or how you rank this or that course in your own experience?

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many times do you have to play a course to know it's great....?
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2011, 08:39:33 PM »
As to the title question...Once!

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many times do you have to play a course to know it's great....?
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2011, 08:43:29 PM »
If it takes you more than three holes to sense something is stirring in your heart then you are wasting your time and looking in vain. And if you need to go back five times to figure it out you're wasting the owner's tee sheet.


I definitely think that one round is all it takes for the truly great ones.  In fact, I go along with Brad, that after a few holes into the round "something can be stirring" within. After four holes at Royal County Down I was in love. After playing number two at Pine Valley I was a believer. Some course do take longer though. It took the entire round for me to think Ballybunion might be great. But there are those handful of special places that cry out, "Hey, I am special.". In fact there are a couple of places I knew I was going to join after a few holes.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many times do you have to play a course to know it's great....?
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2011, 08:51:19 PM »
IMO, the great courses are spectacular enough to blow you away the first time you play them and also interesting and subtle enough to be great everytime you play them.

So, If a course isn't great the first time you play it, it never will be.  Some courses will, however, qualify for potential greatness the first time you play them but not make it in the long haul with repeat play.
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0

David Cronheim

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many times do you have to play a course to know it's great....?
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2011, 09:05:43 PM »
I'd it's a truly great course, I know it before I'm done with the round. I describe it as the same feeling you have as a child on Christmas when 90 percent of the presents are opened. It's not quite over yet, but you're sad you have to wait 364.5 days until you get to do again...
Check out my golf law blog - Tee, Esq.

Andy Troeger

Re: How many times do you have to play a course to know it's great....?
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2011, 09:19:06 PM »
If it takes you more than three holes to sense something is stirring in your heart then you are wasting your time and looking in vain. And if you need to go back five times to figure it out you're wasting the owner's tee sheet.


Great quote! I'm certain those of you that have played Pine Valley and Cypress Point many times do have a better understanding of them than I do, but if you can't see the greatness with those places the first time around then you don't deserve a second chance IMO!

Jim Jackson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many times do you have to play a course to know it's great....?
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2011, 09:28:31 PM »
I had the great fortune of playing four rounds at Dornoch last week.  At first walk, it was undoubtedly a great course, one of the best of my trip and truly a special experience.  By round 4, playing in several different winds, from a few different tees, hitting the ball around the course a bit and appreciating the subtleties of the green complexes, it is without doubt one of the best 2-3 courses I've ever seen, and I'd have a hard time believing there are 5 greater courses anywhere.  So, in this instance, it took at least 3 rounds to appreciate its greatness. 

Peter Pallotta

Re: How many times do you have to play a course to know it's great....?
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2011, 09:46:24 PM »
Mark - to know that it's great, only once. But to KNOW that it's GREAT -- ah, for that we'll have to wait until we've shaken off this mortal coil and arrived in the Land of Fundamental Principles and Objective Truth.

Brad - nice post, pithy AND true, which is rare....

Peter
« Last Edit: August 31, 2011, 09:50:47 PM by PPallotta »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: How many times do you have to play a course to know it's great....?
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2011, 01:40:29 AM »
It does depend on how high your threshold is for "great". 

I think you will fall in love with all the truly great courses the first time you play, but you may also fall for some courses that aren't really quite as great.  I think it takes at least a second trip around [and ideally, not the same or next day] to really appreciate whether the course has the day-to-day variety that makes it exceptional or truly "great" in my book.  That's why I would never rate a course a "10" on the Doak scale after just one round.  Indeed, of all the 10's in my book, I guess the one I've played the fewest times would be Muirfield, which I've "only" played seven or eight times.

Brad, I am curious about your statement of falling in love after three holes.  I agree that's ideal, and as you know it's a thought for me in every routing I do.  But, to pick just one example, would Pebble Beach pass your test?  Or are you saying Pebble isn't great?


Sam Morrow

Re: How many times do you have to play a course to know it's great....?
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2011, 01:57:54 AM »
I admit that I've not played many places I think are great but a great course catches my eye in a different way than other courses. It's something I think I can see.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many times do you have to play a course to know it's great....?
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2011, 02:42:07 AM »
Depends how observant you are. For me once. A rater visited our course a couple of years back and in talking to him afterwards I was astounded how much he had taken in from that one play.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
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Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many times do you have to play a course to know it's great....?
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2011, 02:43:56 AM »
Sometimes never. Who says you have to play it to realize it is great?

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many times do you have to play a course to know it's great....?
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2011, 05:24:43 AM »
Tom Doak,

My wife and I got engaged after two weeks, and that was 24 1/2 years ago, so i might not be the typical guide for this sort of stuff.

As for Pebble Beach, that one waited until the 4th hole, though to this day I still cannot get over the awkward start and have trouble with some of the inland holes when it comes to character and greatness. And obviously there are other courses where it takes longer, maybe not until the fourth hole (Riviera) or fifth hole (Desert Forest). But my point, if you will indulge the literary exaggeration in the posting, is that it should not require multiple visits to get the essence of something, though it will require multiple visits to get the subtle detail in place, and ideally a great golf course continually reveals itself each time to have more than you thought (St. Andrews). But my basic point holds, that you can feel a place and get a sense of its core identity pretty quickly. I find too many folks (raters?) need way too much time, and I am always amused how, during day-long visit when i might walk the course once and play it once, by the end of the day when making a presentation I usually know it far better than the majority of people n the audience, many of whom have been playing it the whole lives.

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