Conditioning the Biarritz

[Chris Hervochon]

I have a friend that used to work at Pine Valley on the grounds crew staff and he knows a thing or two about maintenance.  When I showed him a picture of a Biarritz green today he said "How in the world do they mow those slopes without butchering them?"  He then suggested that I ask you guys if you knew.  Any takers?  Additionally, how do you guys think this green works on a short par 4 with the front level mowed as fairway?

[Mike_Cirba]

Chris,

VERY gingerly, I'd assume.

Seriously, I don't have a clue, but I wonder if there is a differerence with today's much lower cutting heights than when they were designed.

[Michael_Stachowicz]

This could be a real interesting thread based on other conversations that hvae taken place here on the "maintenance meld".  Are there any classic holes that have had their playability comprimised because of modern maintenance.

[GeoffreyC]

Based on my experience playing #9 at Yale numerous times, there isn't much to conditioning the biarritz other then keeping the green from being overwatered.  At Yale the front section is kept as green and that likely helps.

If the pin is in the back section, to get the ball close you almost always need to

1- hit the downslope of the swale to feed the ball back or
2- fly it all the way to the back.

Balls that hit the front section very often feed back into the swale but rarely make their way all the way up the 5 foot rise to the back half of the green. It would require very firm conditions to do that and we do not have that "maintenance meld".  If that were common, front pin locations would be really difficult.

I do think a biarritz green could work well on a par 4 but I'd need to think more about length.  Off the top of my head I'd think a long 4 would work best but it could be REALLY cute on on very short hole where the decision to hit lob wedge all the way to a pin or a 7 iron running approach could be really cool. I'd be curious to hear form the architects out there.

[THuckaby2]

GC - That IS a very cool concept, and it exists in some form at a course RIDICULED, RIPPED and DERIDED by Norcal GCA stalwarts Papazian and Goodale, but frequented still fairly often by public course yahoo who can't afford NOT to play such a fun, cheap course, yours truly (I was just there two weeks ago) - Coyote Creek, Valley Course, San Jose, CA.

The hole in question is #12, a par 4 of app. 340 yards, slight dogleg left with the fairway angling down a little hill, with a BIARRITZ-style green set an an angle even with the dogleg, that is, app. 45 degrees to the left from the straight out shot from the tee.  The green has a swale cut in the middle, straight across, making for three definite sections (front, swale, back), but different from Yale9 in that it is set at an angle and the only way to get a straight shot into the green is to stay to the right side of the fairway.  The hole presents many options from the tee, based on where the pin is and what type of 2nd shot you want to try... and would even be driveable in a big wind (it is downhill and generally does play fast).  In any case, the normal safe play is to stay right, to  achieve the proper angle in, and wherever you leave the drive, the possibilities are many for the 2nd, particularly to a back pin...  This green is certainly a poor step-child compared to the monster at Yale, but it is damn interesting and makes for a fun hole.

The course in question has been debated on here before so we need not get into that again!  Just wanted to mention the scenario does exist.

TH

[Rich_Goodale]

Tom

I never said I didn't like the 12th at CC.  It seems to be a very good hole even though my participation in it effectively ended when I hooked my drive over the trees towards the adjacent green, ....

There is, of course, the original Biarritz, the par 4 16th at North Berwick-West Links.  Yes, I know that George Bahto and others pooh pooh this theory of mine, but I recently uncovered evidence that the town of North Berwick used to promote itself as "The Biarritz of the North."  Case closed!

[THuckaby2]

Rich - 12 is a darn good hole... even from the trees on the left, which I have indeed found twice myself, if you get lucky there is a play.  As for the rest of the course, I promised to leave the issue alone and I shall.  

Re the "original" Biarritz, I leave that to the historians so enjoy the battle!  I did absolutely MARVEL at the one at N. Berwick... maybe "marvel" isn't the right word - it completely freaked me out.  My mind wasn't ready to accept such a thing at that point in time.... When I saw Yale#9 in the company of Dr. Childs, et al, I was READY.  Unfortunately my body wasn't and I butchered the hole, but mentally, I was impressed and I coulda stayed there all day.  That hole is BEYOND cool.  Calling it an "inland version of 16Cypress" sounds sacreligious but is indeed fair.

Cheers!

TH

ps - BEWARE! You're gonna be leaving just in time... I just got word my application to be an NCGA course rater has finally been approved... insert evil laugh here....

[Rich_Goodale]

TH

I am now a doyen, and mere "raters" do not intimidate me at all.

[GeoffreyC]

I don't like the idea of a biarritz green that by necessity needs to be approached form an angle.

I think a short par 4 could be best if its dogleged in either direction but a properly placed drive leaves you with a direct head on approach to allow a runup shot.  If the swale is any significant depth, the direct approach is the only way to play a runup.  Otherwise you force an aerial approach.

The 16th at North Berwick is a cool biarritz green at an angle.  I've not played it enough to know if anything but a direct approach to the side of the green the pin is cut is possible.  I don't think that hole has as its architectural intent ground game play through the swale.

[Rich_Goodale]

I agree with all your points, Geoffrey.

Does anybody have an answer to the original question, i.e. is a "Biarritz" hard to mow?  I've seen guys riding green mowers up and down some pretty severe slopes in Scotland, but that was on links courses where the ground is very firm.

[THuckaby2]

I think a short par 4 could be best if its dogleged in either direction but a properly placed drive leaves you with a direct head on approach to allow a runup shot.  If the swale is any significant depth, the direct approach is the only way to play a runup.  Otherwise you force an aerial approach.

You have described #12 at Coyote Creek - Valley perfectly.  A drive to the right allows the run up, anything center or left will not.  Adding to the fun here is there are trees and ob right... makes for a neat risk/reward drive.  Even I admit it is painful to include this course in a discussion also including the names Yale and N. Berwick, but the 12th is what it is....

And Rich, doyen-hood is just a matter of time, I'm nearly there myself... If you were gonna stay as an NCGA member, your handicap fate would shortly be in my hands... [INSERT EVIL LAUGH HERE].

TH

[Chris Hervochon]

My friends original inquiry was whether or not the mower would butcher the green on the downslopes and upslopes as he thought it would.  We figured you could cut sideways??? probably not though.  He thought u would have to wate it a lot to get the grass to grow...but on that hole u can't do it b/c a running approach is necessitated.  My suggestion was to let the grass on the slopes grow a hair, and just roll the begeezes out of em.  What do you think?

[Michael_Stachowicz]

A riding rough mower that is made for bunker banks and green surrounds can handle a side tilt of 40 to 45 degrees max (this still exceeds the intended use of the machine).  This is under perfect conditions: dry mowing, very little turning, and easy access.  With these slopes in the 60 to 70 degree range, it would probably be best done with a string trimmer.  A well trained individual could keep it maintained very smoothly, but it would take a couple of hours.
   Flymows are a popular response to a question like this, but they are highly over-rated.  The cut is poor and operation is difficult.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Chris,
The very first time I ever played Yale was with a group of three friends. It was very hot, windless, smoggy day and no water had been put out. I think it was the day after a Hogan Tour event so we chalked it up to that. Needless to say we were all a bit heat struck when we reached #9. Upon seeing the hole, the first guy to hit in our group said,  "I'm going in that swale just to see what it's like to putt out of it". He did and we all folliowed suit. As we tried to figure the best way out one of the guys comments was "I'm following the mower stripe out of here". On that day the stripe was coming out of the swale on about a 45' angle. Sorry if I took a long time in getting around to my answer, but we had such a blast trying to get one close from down there that I couldn't resist recounting the tale here.

[Peter Galea]

#12 Coyote Creek

[George Bahto]

I don't think there is any problem mowing a Biarritz green - I've seen nearly of Raynor's and Banks' and have never heard any super complain in any way.

The slopes at Yale are about as severe as they get - most of the swales are pretty wide and therefore not steep.

The Double Plateau style greens are much more difficult to maintain and get scalped a lot along the ridges if the operators isn't careful.

[John_D._Bernhardt]

I am glad to see the drive to Pebble, MPCC and Cypress has a green of arch. note.

[THuckaby2]

Thanks, Pete!  That's a pic looking from the right side of the fairway, indeed!  If you hit it a little farther you can take advantage of hitting a runner to a back pin... Also that pic flattens the green a little in perspective, but even in that you can still see the pronounced swale.

Pin seems to be in the swale in your pic... that's also kinda fun, makes for some really interesting putts and chips....

Very cool!

TH

[John_D._Bernhardt]

By the by, I am assuming the reason for this post was conditioning. Isn't merely a question of slope to move the water and the design of the irragation system as to amount of water from certain heads to control amount and time of release.

[GeoffreyC]

Good picture Pete

It looks like a fun hole but it's awfully GREEN.  Does the hole accept a running shot?  

Also I might have extended that bunker more towards the front of the green to encourage more drives up the right side and eliminated that cape.

[THuckaby2]

GC - the vivid green color is there because of Pete's incredible photographic skill, and most likely the time of year this was taken... San Jose goes soft and wet from Thanksgiving to St. Patrick's Day, dry and firm the rest of the year, in general.  The course in question CAN indeed be very green, but that hole in question does indeed allow for a running shot year round.  They've done a pretty good job keeping the putting surfaces and approaches firm - I was just there two weeks ago after a week of rain and it was running just fine.

TH

[THuckaby2]

Whoops.  Forgot about:

Also I might have extended that bunker more towards the front of the green to encourage more drives up the right side and eliminated that cape.

Interesting thought... I don't know if I agree with this though - if you extend the bunker you penalize further the people who HAVEN'T gone right, giving them even less of a play.. the trees are pretty thick on the left side (which you can't see, obviously - but see the tree on the left of the pic?  Trees like this extend all the way back to the tee) and this would give absolutely NO shot to those who miss the fairway left - as it is a running punch under the trees can still find the green.  While some might say "fine" to this, one also must remember that the right side holds a line of trees, about 20 yards of death weeds, and then US 101.  Yep, the freeway is right there.  So making right the ONLY play might not be wise for liability purposes!  Extending the bunker also makes it so OBVIOUS that one would have to go right... as it is it's not really all the clear that it matters much until you've played the hole a few times.  On a pretty much "basic", public course, which this is, a hole requiring some thought and adding some confusion to me is a good thing... such courses have so little of this, in general.

I know, you couldn't see all of this, GC.  But the hole is pretty damn well done as it is, with all the realities there.  I just wanted to give full disclosure before Gib comes on and rips me!

TH

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Tom congrats on the Santa Clara's again. The Homer S. picture always grabs my eye and therefore miss the small print.

[THuckaby2]

Many thanks, JDB!  We take our victories where they occur, OBVIOUSLY!  The main focus of most of my alum friends and me, however, is indeed men's hoops, and we are awful.  Oh well....

TH