Should architects own their courses?

[Anthony Gray]

  ?

[Adrian_Stiff]

What do you mean Anthony?

[Anthony Gray]

What do you mean Anthony?

  Crump...CBM...Parsinen. Just seems like its a good idea. I played one last  year where the architect took it over to keep it open.

  Anthony

 

[Mike_Young]

no reason not to....
you got to remember..there will not be 50 architects practicing ( making a living from golf design solely) in another two years unless their wives are working.  Might be sooner.  Or it might already be here.

[David Harshbarger]

It could result in some fine courses, ifnthe architect were there to refine and improve over the years.

[Mike Nuzzo]

It could result in some fine courses, ifnthe architect were there to refine and improve over the years.

Why would an architect who built their own course need to refine it? 

It might certainly teach some architects restraint Anthony.

[Tom_Doak]

Anthony:

It's a mixed blessing.  I thought about trying to put together a group to purchase High Pointe -- I really loved the course, and could almost see myself retiring to run it and refine it in another 5-10 years.  But the owner just wanted too much for it, the deal did not make sense. 

In hindsight, it's probably just as well.  The LAST thing I need when I get home from Scotland/France/Nebraska/China is to worry about the pump station and the cash register at a golf course in Traverse City, instead of catching up with my wife and family and office duties.  If there was really little or no work going on, it might be different -- and it could still be different.  But for now, I think I may be one of Mike Y's last 50 guys standing in the architecture game.  I might even make it to the last 10 or 20.

It would be wonderful to be one's own client, just once, so I had total freedom on the design front.  I've had a few clients give me "carte blanche," but even if they say it and mean it, it would be unprofessional not to worry about how their course will be received and whether it will be successful.  Of course, most architects would have to worry about the same things if they were the owner, but I think I would feel a little more freedom not to worry about the total on the scorecard, at least.

P.S.  Regarding owning your own courses, there are several notable cases in Ron Whitten's book The Architects of Golf, of architects who wound up owning one of their own courses after the Depression and running it for years afterward ... and dying poor!

[Jeff_Brauer]

I recall being on a design team with a landscape architect for a hotel casino course.  He noted that he owned a hotel and it made him realize just what made sense financially.  He was known for granite curbs and other nice paving and landscape touches, but said his hotel had none of that.  Nice clean, concrete curbs and asphalt paving made just as good an impression on 90% of the customers, and in some case, the nicer items turned customers off, conveying the image that the price might be too high.  In other words, he found out sweeping concrete and hosing it off made him just as much money as the more expensive items.

So, I wonder what gca's might learn from owning their own golf courses.  Would tearing up a green, or adding a bunker to make something "just right" be worth it to them if they took it off the bottom line?

Short version, every gca ought to own at least one golf course, or parts thereof, to put himself in his clients shoes.

[Steve Lang]

Anthony:

It's a mixed blessing.  I thought about trying to put together a group to purchase High Pointe -- I really loved the course, and could almost see myself retiring to run it and refine it in another 5-10 years.  But the owner just wanted too much for it, the deal did not make sense. 

In hindsight, it's probably just as well.  The LAST thing I need when I get home from Scotland/France/Nebraska/China is to worry about the pump station and the cash register at a golf course in Traverse City, instead of catching up with my wife and family and office duties.  If there was really little or no work going on, it might be different -- and it could still be different.  But for now, I think I may be one of Mike Y's last 50 guys standing in the architecture game.  I might even make it to the last 10 or 20.

It would be wonderful to be one's own client, just once, so I had total freedom on the design front.  I've had a few clients give me "carte blanche," but even if they say it and mean it, it would be unprofessional not to worry about how their course will be received and whether it will be successful.  Of course, most architects would have to worry about the same things if they were the owner, but I think I would feel a little more freedom not to worry about the total on the scorecard, at least.

P.S.  Regarding owning your own courses, there are several notable cases in Ron Whitten's book The Architects of Golf, of architects who wound up owning one of their own courses after the Depression and running it for years afterward ... and dying poor!

TD,

Its a crying shame that the only thing happening at High Pointe is the bailing of hay off the fairways.. though one can still play 16 and 17 from Bates road, sort of,, but not hole out..  hard to believe it couldn't make some money... or a consortium wouldn't make a go for it..   

[Tony Ristola]

I'm looking to own and operate. Have two properties in mind.

Jeff,
If the "typical" architect is building for himself, you don't think he'd be on-site a whole lot more? Perhaps daily to ensure things get nailed just right so there wouldn't have to be any future digging up of greens? So the course would have greater chances of short and longterm success?

I'd love to see architects put it on the line, merely as a way to measure the difference in commitment in dealing with their dollars and the dollars of others. I think it would be a fascinating study; though I do believe I know the result.

[Scott Warren]

I have only played one course (I am aware of) that is owned by the architect and on that basis can't see that it necessarily makes for great architecture.

I am sure it translates into the architect getting a more pure course built -- exactly how they envisioned it -- but I guess whether that outcome is good, bad or indifferent depends on the architect!

[Tony Ristola]

I have only played one course (I am aware of) that is owned by the architect and on that basis can't see that it necessarily makes for great architecture.

I am sure it translates into the architect getting a more pure course built -- exactly how they envisioned it -- but I guess whether that outcome is good, bad or indifferent depends on the architect!

LOL... yes indeed.

If I knew an architect had his own show, and was contemplating hiring the individual, it would be the first course of his I'd want to see.

[Scott Warren]

Without a doubt.

[Adrian_Stiff]

How much money you have to spend still dictates in a number of ways:

Owning a golf course and designing one still does not mean you get it perfect, firstly your potential site might be too exensive to purchase and out of financial, so you settle for a cheaper land parcel, or you go for the great site build a great course but your location means the course goes bust.

It's a lot more than 1 + 1 = 2.

Great golf course architecture needs to factored by cost and there are some great things you can do that dont cost of course, but beware beware beware the punter wants a lot of things this site 'neys'... yesterday somebody said ..its a great course its got loads of water. You can just do your very best with the money you have to spend but most of the time the thoughts on this site are exactly how NOT TO DO IT if your looking at the business angles.

[Tony Ristola]

How much money you have to spend still dictates in a number of ways:

Owning a golf course and designing one still does not mean you get it perfect, firstly your potential site might be too exensive to purchase and out of financial, so you settle for a cheaper land parcel, or you go for the great site build a great course but your location means the course goes bust.

It's a lot more than 1 + 1 = 2.

Great golf course architecture needs to factored by cost and there are some great things you can do that dont cost of course, but beware beware beware the punter wants a lot of things this site 'neys'... yesterday somebody said ..its a great course its got loads of water. You can just do your very best with the money you have to spend but most of the time the thoughts on this site are exactly how NOT TO DO IT if your looking at the business angles.

Personally, I'd wait until all the stars line up, and have. I've been looking for quite a while.

I look at owning a golf course much the same way Warren Buffett looks at stocks. I can look at 50 properties, and like a baseball batter let the pitches that would make me a .180 hitter pass. When a situation that says Grand Slam or can make me a .400 hitter crosses the plate, then I'll swing. If the economy goes into the tank, I'll still be positioned with a Margin-of-Safety to survive. Too many projects were developed with little or no Margin-of-Safety, were forced to charge "X" to survive, wasn't feasible and went bankrupt.

Now, if someone is in a rush, and have the feeling they must act, then you're in a position to make errors. I think Mike Keiser exhibited precisely the baseball batter's patience I spoke about. He knew what he wanted, was patient in pursuing it, and when it arrived he was ready to go. His selection of property was perhaps not ideal from a location point of view, but I surmise he had deep enough pockets to wait its success out.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Tony - You are right when you talk about patience. Location is paramount for economical success, sadly it has the edge on quality of property although there is a balance in that people will travel a bit for better in most places in the world and certinly further than in the UK its a big NO, nearest golf course means a lot to UKerrs. 20 minute drive times are where you maximise your traffic, at 30 minutes you are collecting 10% of your customers. I suspect you could double those time distances in the USA although fuel costs in the future could start to impact you have been lucky with cheap fuel for a long time.

Mike Keisser is not the dream to follow unless you have real deep pockets, Bandon broke all the rules of course.

Perhaps one thought for archies is to work for zero and take a % of the project, that way you are working for yourselves in many respects bufferred by a financial backer that see's your input as critical. It was what I did on about my 3rd project and 6th project.

One thing worth mentioning is just because someone is a great architect it does not mean they will be great at running and operating a golf course, in the same way as just because your a great player you will be a great golf course architect.

If your in the UK Tony near Bristol, you must pop in.

[Tony Ristola]

Tony - You are right when you talk about patience. Location is paramount for economical success, sadly it has the edge on quality of property although there is a balance in that people will travel a bit for better in most places in the world and certinly further than in the UK its a big NO, nearest golf course means a lot to UKerrs. 20 minute drive times are where you maximise your traffic, at 30 minutes you are collecting 10% of your customers. I suspect you could double those time distances in the USA although fuel costs in the future could start to impact you have been lucky with cheap fuel for a long time.

Mike Keisser is not the dream to follow unless you have real deep pockets, Bandon broke all the rules of course.

Perhaps one thought for archies is to work for zero and take a % of the project, that way you are working for yourselves in many respects bufferred by a financial backer that see's your input as critical. It was what I did on about my 3rd project and 6th project.

One thing worth mentioning is just because someone is a great architect it does not mean they will be great at running and operating a golf course, in the same way as just because your a great player you will be a great golf course architect.

If your in the UK Tony near Bristol, you must pop in.

I do agree with location, location, location. I've seen projects built that saved 20-25 minutes driving and the longtime club in the "boonies" lost hundreds of members. One of the properties I have in mind will do something similar I'm afraid, but someone will do it at some point, and one fine golf course in the region would dominate for years to come. It would shut out future competition.

As for operations/architecture, I agree 100%. I'd add, as much as design/construction plays a role in success, so do the decisions of clubhouse etc. The less debt one has to carry, the better, and so often I've heard members lament the loss of intimacy when the club builds a new, modern clubhouse that could double in atmosphere for a hospital.

Mike Keiser is the exception that proves the rule, but he selected a seemingly incredible property, and did a fine job with initial marketing to get the ball rolling.

And I'd be sure to pop in... I'll give fair warning!

[Scott Macpherson]

Denis Griffiths (DGA) is rare breed. He is a GCA (indeed a former President of the ASGCA), owns a construction company and has owned golf courses (he currently owns Old Union' in Georgia). I have no desire to own a course, but I admire Denis greatly.

scott

[Mike Hogan]

I'm pretty sure that Robert Trent Jones Jr designed, built and owns Eagle Point in Medford Or.
Very nice semi private club built in the mid 90's. When it opened it was a showcase for great condioning, not sure what it's like now.

[Tony Ristola]

I'm pretty sure that Robert Trent Jones Jr designed, built and owns Eagle Point in Medford Or.
Very nice semi private club built in the mid 90's. When it opened it was a showcase for great condioning, not sure what it's like now.

Could be wrong, but I recall hearing he sold years ago.

[Mike_Young]

If not mistaken, RTJ owned Coral Ridge in Ft Lauderdale and many of the people that worked with him lived there.   

[Tom_Doak]

I'm pretty sure that Robert Trent Jones Jr designed, built and owns Eagle Point in Medford Or.
Very nice semi private club built in the mid 90's. When it opened it was a showcase for great condioning, not sure what it's like now.

Mike H:

My understanding was that project was an example of things NOT working out financially for the architect/owner.


Mike Y:

Yes, Mr. Jones did own and operate Coral Ridge ... his club manager back then, Jim Singerling, is now the executive director of the CMAA. Mr. Jones also bought the property for what is now Robert Trent Jones Golf Club in VA, and for Pinehurst Nos. 9 & 10.  I think he was a little better at deal-making than most architects are.