[Jud_T]

hollers?  are they adding soul food to the bbq menu out there?  speaking of which, what type of BBQ sauce is indigenous to the Sand Hills?

[John Kavanaugh]

Will,

I'm being selfish here because I have to play the thing.  

[Eric Smith]

P.S. to Jud:  Prevailing wind in the sand hills is "full on", but the direction changes often enough that it's not much use trying to peg it.

This video gives a taste of what the wind CAN be like out there. Buckle up!

[Will Lozier]

Will,

I'm being selfish here because I have to play the thing.  

Then just bail out left!  Being a teacher, I am tempted to drive up there this summer to see Nicklaus' course and Doak's in progress.  Dismal seems to be a great destination with your 19th through 36th holes in the making!  

Did you happen to sneak out to play that hole when Tom had only staked it...any holes for that matter?

Cheers

[Will Lozier]

P.S. to Jud:  Prevailing wind in the sand hills is "full on", but the direction changes often enough that it's not much use trying to peg it.

This video gives a taste of what the wind CAN be like out there. Buckle up!

Eric,

How normal...or abnormal is this?

Cheers

[Ben Stephens]

I guess a lot of the questions about the nature of our third hole need a bit more background.

The natural grass cover in the sand hills is a mixture of all sorts of grasses -- everything from buffalo grass to orchard grass to a bit of fine fescue here and there.  John Kavanaugh used the quaint midwestern term "gunch" which accurately depicts what it feels like when your all is in it and the cows haven't grazed it down lately.

To turn the hazard right of #3 into a grassy hollow like at Portrush would require irrigation and seeding to fine fescue -- and the 2:1 slope down into the bunker would STILL be difficult to maintain no matter what the circumstance.  

A smaller bunker like the one on the left would probably hold up a bit better in the wind if it were revetted, but revetting bunkers every 2-3 years is not entirely cost-effective, either.  Sand Hills Golf Club has had success in reducing wind erosion over the last few years by using a soil cement in the winter months to prevent things from blowing around, and that's likely how we will address the issue at Dismal.

I just got back from Pacific Dunes where we went over all the same issues -- it's much tougher to solve there because the golf course is always in play and the wind is always in play, too.

P.S. to Jud:  Prevailing wind in the sand hills is "full on", but the direction changes often enough that it's not much use trying to peg it.

Tom,

We have large grassy fescue hollows in the UK - Calamity at Portrush, Ca Canny at Turnberry plus a few at Sandwich which are unlikely to be irrigated at all and their grass are left to go 'yellowy' in colour which is natural and a much more sustainable approach and only require a flymo (with a string) cut every 2 weeks or monthly. Why irrigate the rough areas??? only the greens, tees and surrounds need it (maybe the fairways as well but not watered as much unless required). If the rough was watered it just makes it thicker and requires more cutting.

I would avoid revetting the bunkers but construct turfed 'wall' bunkers, with shallower faces in parts, which are easier and cheaper to maintain over the years than a revetted bunker and windblowed one. This would reduce the cost of sand as well as the sand is at the base of the bunkers and less likely to get blown away. I have worked as a greenkeeper and it has given me an insight what bothers them the most.

Cheers
Ben

  

[Ben Sims]

Some observations...

1)  We are critiquing a golf course pre-grassing, pre grow-in, on how its bunkers look?  Has anyone here been to the Sand Hills?  The wind driven evolution of bunkers in the Sand Hills has been written about ad nauseum.  Not only that, but the natural wind-blown look to them is basically the only aesthetic that would look natural to the area.  There are splotchy grasses sand scrapes all over the place.

2)  The huge pit to the right of 3 green is hard by the green.  People will miss the green by hitting in there.  In fact, it will be a very common miss if the wind is into the golfer.  Leaving it as-is would have been an option, if traffic weren't an issue or if the architect wanted the hole to be much more penal.  With enough traffic, it will become sandier and more bunker-like.  Not only that, it is unmowable on the slopes.  The photo is question makes the grass on the pit seem relatively benign and playable.  It ain't.  Making parts of that pit a bunker seems to be the only way to preserve some playability while not compromising the feature, in my opinion.

In my opinion, I think one needs to have some familiarity with the local conditions before they critique a golf course pre-seeding.  

[Ron Farris]

"Why woud the architect choose to improve on this?"  

I have some pictures of the Sand Hills Golf Club that I think most people would be shocked to see with respect to bunkering. Enhancing mother nature can take place in many forms.

I have often thought that the grass bunkering that exists in the sand hills of Nebraska have been under utilized with respect to The Sand Hills GC, Dismal (1), Prairie Club, and perhaps even Wild Horse.  If the bunker referred to above had been left alone and had received heavy foot traffic it may very well become the bunkering that Mr. Doak and crew have created.  Having grown up in the area I often notice the creation of bunkers in traffic zones, with cows, trucks, or even foot traffic.  The power of the wind in Nebraska is easily underestimated.  

Great to see this course coming to be here.  Regrets I was unable to visit last week.

[Will Lozier]

Some observations...

1)  We are critiquing a golf course pre-grassing, pre grow-in, on how its bunkers look?  Has anyone here been to the Sand Hills?  The wind driven evolution of bunkers in the Sand Hills has been written about ad nauseum.  Not only that, but the natural wind-blown look to them is basically the only aesthetic that would look natural to the area.  There are splotchy grasses sand scrapes all over the place.

2)  The huge pit to the right of 3 green is hard by the green.  People will miss the green by hitting in there.  In fact, it will be a very common miss if the wind is into the golfer.  Leaving it as-is would have been an option, if traffic weren't an issue or if the architect wanted the hole to be much more penal.  With enough traffic, it will become sandier and more bunker-like.  Not only that, it is unmowable on the slopes.  The photo is question makes the grass on the pit seem relatively benign and playable.  It ain't.  Making parts of that pit a bunker seems to be the only way to preserve some playability while not compromising the feature, in my opinion.

In my opinion, I think one needs to have some familiarity with the local conditions before they critique a golf course pre-seeding.  

Ben,

We are just having "some frank commentary on golf course architecture"!  Yes, this includes critiquing with or without knowing every detail of what Tom had to consider.  This is how people learn - both us and, possibly even the architect.  Your points are well taken without the critique of the critiquing.  And no, I've never been to the sand hills but have played a good amount of links golf overseas and at Bandon (for 5 months).  That doesn't mean I should simply bitE my tongue.  I'm also pretty sure that the suggestion of leaving that pit all natural is not limited to those of us who have never been to that region.

Cheers

[John Kavanaugh]

Will,

I'm being selfish here because I have to play the thing.  

Then just bail out left!  Being a teacher, I am tempted to drive up there this summer to see Nicklaus' course and Doak's in progress.  Dismal seems to be a great destination with your 19th through 36th holes in the making!  

Did you happen to sneak out to play that hole when Tom had only staked it...any holes for that matter?

Cheers

I have played the entire course post mow out and pin placement.  Several pictures on this very thread document said fact.

I for one enjoy everyones commentary, questions and suggestions during this period of construction and grow in.  Our most beloved member may have even at one time hoped for a grass holler as opposed to a bunker on #3.  The only recommendation I ever recall making is that we have bent greens as opposed to fescue.  I love the bent grass greens at Sand Hills and on the Nicklaus course.

[Will Lozier]

Will,

I'm being selfish here because I have to play the thing.  

Then just bail out left!  Being a teacher, I am tempted to drive up there this summer to see Nicklaus' course and Doak's in progress.  Dismal seems to be a great destination with your 19th through 36th holes in the making!  

Did you happen to sneak out to play that hole when Tom had only staked it...any holes for that matter?

Cheers

I have played the entire course post mow out and pin placement.  Several pictures on this very thread document said fact.

I for one enjoy everyones commentary, questions and suggestions during this period of construction and grow in.  Our most beloved member may have even at one time hoped for a grass holler as opposed to a bunker on #3.  The only recommendation I ever recall making is that we have bent greens as opposed to fescue.  I love the bent grass greens at Sand Hills and on the Nicklaus course.

John,

I forgot that was you!  I am envious as every armchair architect dreams of playing a course pre-construction!  Have you ever had that opportunity before?

Cheers

[John Kavanaugh]

Will,

I do not recall ever playing a course pre-construction.  As far as I am concerned DD was post-construct during my round. I played from the tees to the greens.  On one of the par 3's we were sure that I had a hole-in-one only to find there was not a hole as defined by the rules of golf.

This was also the case the first time I played the Nicklaus course.  They had set the course up for winter and removed the cups and pins.  It was as much fun as I had ever had golfing.  Once we made it on a green each golfer would place a tee next to their ball and putt to their opponents.  Fewest strokes won of course.  Didn't take a cart, we rode in the pro's Jeep.  The kitchen was also closed for the winter and all they had in my room were a couple of Snickers and a bottle of Jack.  No wonder I joined.

Why aren't you coming to the 5th Major?

[Will Lozier]

Will,

I do not recall ever playing a course pre-construction.  As far as I am concerned DD was post-construct during my round. I played from the tees to the greens.  On one of the par 3's we were sure that I had a hole-in-one only to find there was not a hole as defined by the rules of golf.

This was also the case the first time I played the Nicklaus course.  They had set the course up for winter and removed the cups and pins.  It was as much fun as I had ever had golfing.  Once we made it on a green each golfer would place a tee next to their ball and putt to their opponents.  Fewest strokes won of course.  Didn't take a cart, we rode in the pro's Jeep.  The kitchen was also closed for the winter and all they had in my room were a couple of Snickers and a bottle of Jack.  No wonder I joined.

Why aren't you coming to the 5th Major?

Fascinating! 

As far as the 5th major is concerned, timing isn't great with a family trip we have planned down here from Atlanta to VA.  Also, aren't all spots settled?  If not, I'll double check on my dates...maybe!?

Cheers

[Kalen Braley]

I know its only pics and I'm sure the 3rd will be a teriffic hole...

...but put me in the camp with Bogey.  I thought that big grassy pit looked completely awesome and was a tad surprised its got bunkering in it now.  Whats wrong with having a nasty beast like that on a private course where having a stack of groups on your tail won't be an issue.  You could even make a local rule that its a red stake hazard so people wouldn't have to take the walk of shame on a lost ball.

[John Kavanaugh]

I've got two cottages and if someone, possibly me, doesn't end up sleeping on the couch I will be surprised.  Given the trivialities of life and family their will of course be both no-shows and cancellations.  Too many golfers and too few beds is not going to be a problem.

I don't know how many of you are familiar with The Wire but Dismal has two pool tables.  I look for someone to be laid out like a dead policeman at Kavanaugh's Pub.

[John Kavanaugh]

I know its only pics and I'm sure the 3rd will be a teriffic hole...

...but put me in the camp with Bogey.  I thought that big grassy pit looked completely awesome and was a tad surprised its got bunkering in it now.  Whats wrong with having a nasty beast like that on a private course where having a stack of groups on your tail won't be an issue.  You could even make a local rule that its a red stake hazard so people wouldn't have to take the walk of shame on a lost ball.

This is a picture that Eric took from the bottom of the hole adjacent to 3 green.  The guy up top is not King Joffrey's Hand.



btw: Maybe a few walks of shame would get you out to the practice range.

[Ben Sims]

Ben,

We are just having "some frank commentary on golf course architecture"!  Yes, this includes critiquing with or without knowing every detail of what Tom had to consider.  This is how people learn - both us and, possibly even the architect.  Your points are well taken without the critique of the critiquing.   And no, I've never been to the sand hills but have played a good amount of links golf overseas and at Bandon (for 5 months).  That doesn't mean I should simply bit my tongue.  I'm also pretty sure that the suggestion of leaving that pit all natural is not limited to those of us who have never been to that region.

Cheers

Yes, you're right of course.  No one should ever bit their tongue.  That would of course cause pain and perhaps a better understanding of past vs. present verb usage.  We wouldn't want that.   

Also, I must ask a question.  Were those opining on what was better for the golf course critquing it without knowing every detail, or without knowing any detail?   

Will, I wasn't referring to you--or anyone--specifically in my first post above.  My main intention was to highlight the amount of "critque" coming from all directions, prior to any explanation on the process of deciding what to do with certain features (which Tom subsequently provided). 

I think what I wanted to convey is that those bunkers look anything but out of place and that epic hole next to 3 green will be one of the most talked about features on any modern golf course for years to come whether it is grassed or not.

[Eric Smith]

And here's the view looking down into the mouth of the beast:



Both pics were taken in October, so the grasses, thorns, spikey plants, etc...weren't likely growing any longer but were plenty hardy, though nowhere near as lush as they were in the 'green valley' state we experienced during our June tour.  It's my opinion that a golfer hitting into that junk would lose their ball and if they did find it - and tried to play it - they'd hate it.  I think I would.  I for one love the look of the work the crew is doing and can't wait to see it in person in a few more weeks.

[Kalen Braley]

Ben,

I'd like to believe that, but reality is, most golfers out there don't even know what/where Cypress Point is, much less golf courses in the middle of nowhere Nebraska.

It shall remain one of the little hidden nuggets for those of us who care/are interested on a deep level.

[Tom_Doak]

I can report from experience that if we had left the big pit in its native state, only about half the golfers would have found their ball, and most of those who did would be headed to a score of 6 or more.

Can anyone name me a hazard in golf that severe?

I think this is a case of the double standard between just-built courses and older ones.  I've never heard anyone suggest that the dune bunkers at Sandwich or St. Enodoc should have been grass bunkers instead.  For that matter, some of the same people who are wondering about this bunker have had orgasms in public over the picture of Bob Huntley in the bunker to the left of #4 at Sand Hills, which is the most comparable example I can think of.

I hope that Sir Bob has a chance to test out this bunker one day, as well.

[Mike Hendren]

Ben, I asked a simple question.
You called the bunker "epic."  
So which of us is offering "critique?"

BTW, I have indeed golfed my ball in the sand hills and likely am more familiar with the gunch than you or Barney.

Kindest regards,

Bogey

[Eric Smith]

Some photos from earlier today courtesy of Jaeger Kovich.

#3  Par 3   190...ish? (not sure)


#5  Par 3...230?...more or less


#6  Par 4 from the back...300 or so...(I think)


From a little closer

Hello!! Didn't realize you'd posted these, Don - thanks! And thanks Jaeger!

[Mike Hendren]

And here's the view looking down into the mouth of the beast:



Both pics were taken in October, so the grasses, thorns, spikey plants, etc...weren't likely growing any longer but were plenty hardy, though nowhere near as lush as they were in the 'green valley' state we experienced during our June tour.  It's my opinion that a golfer hitting into that junk would lose their ball and if they did find it - and tried to play it - they'd hate it.  I think I would.  I for one love the look of the work the crew is doing and can't wait to see it in person in a few more weeks.

Two words:  1) Round-Up; and 2) Punchbowl

Bogey

[Will Lozier]

Ben,

We are just having "some frank commentary on golf course architecture"!  Yes, this includes critiquing with or without knowing every detail of what Tom had to consider.  This is how people learn - both us and, possibly even the architect.  Your points are well taken without the critique of the critiquing.   And no, I've never been to the sand hills but have played a good amount of links golf overseas and at Bandon (for 5 months).  That doesn't mean I should simply bit my tongue.  I'm also pretty sure that the suggestion of leaving that pit all natural is not limited to those of us who have never been to that region.

Cheers

Yes, you're right of course.  No one should ever bit their tongue.  That would of course cause pain and perhaps a better understanding of past vs. present verb usage.  We wouldn't want that.   

Also, I must ask a question.  Were those opining on what was better for the golf course critquing it without knowing every detail, or without knowing any detail?   

Will, I wasn't referring to you--or anyone--specifically in my first post above.  My main intention was to highlight the amount of "critque" coming from all directions, prior to any explanation on the process of deciding what to do with certain features (which Tom subsequently provided). 

I think what I wanted to convey is that those bunkers look anything but out of place and that epic hole next to 3 green will be one of the most talked about features on any modern golf course for years to come whether it is grassed or not.

Wow Ben...feisty in your critique of verb tenses...or rather simply mispellings.  This is perhaps why I teach Pre-Calculus rather than English.  

I don't remember anyone saying that the "pit" being left all-natural would be "better for the golf course"?  Correct me if I am wrong.  I simply remember folks expressing their aesthetic preferences with albeit less consideration for playability than the architect must take.  I DID consider playability and feel like if I found myself in that depression, I'd get what I deserved given the massive amount of space to the left and beyond.  I've played RSG and Lahinch (to which I compared that hazard) and Royal County Down where I have encountered very similar ground.  I found it to be exhilarating frankly.  I am a solid player and do understand the problems higher handicaps would routinely run into, certainly, which seemed to drive the decision to a large extent - playability.  

I also don't remember anyone saying the bunker looks "out of place."  The sentiment that I and others expressed was simply that true minimalism in practice would have seen that pit left completely in it's original state.  If that scenario is never considered - and I am pretty sure that Tom Doak of all people did consider it - the designer, in my humble opinion, isn't thinking the design through - which he did.  I fully trust that the hole will turn out to be world-class - it already is in fact, pit OR bunker, grass or dirt.  But aren't we entitled, nay obliged, to ask "What if?"?

Cheers

[Ben Sims]

Ben, I asked a simple question.
You called the bunker "epic." 
So which of us is offering "critique?"

BTW, I have indeed golfed my ball in the sand hills and likely am more familiar with the gunch than you or Barney.

Kindest regards,

Bogey

Bogey, (weird saying that, it's my Labrador's name)

It is 100% true you asked a question instead of offering a critique.  My mistake in saying you offered a critique.

By the way, I hit a couple shots out of that hole last September.  Leaving it native would have been a decision based in romance instead of reality. 

Will,

You're right, you never said any of those things.  I never said that you said any of those things.  If you reread my reply, you will see that I wrote, ""Will, I wasn't referring to you--or anyone--in particular when I wrote my post above."

Let me be clear in what my opinion of many of the questions were.    Revetted bunkers would look dumb in the Sand Hills.  Native blow outs--or bunkers scraped out by excavator and then shaped by the wind--are in my opinion the easiest way to maintain sand hazards in that environment.  Playability is a concern for native areas, and that hole is better with some bare sand areas rather than all native.  It's an opinion yes.  But my opinion is based of having played out of the hole and keeping playability in the forefront.  Not how "minimalist" it would be to keep the hole as is, or some idea of aesthetics gleaned from a photo.

Will, of course this site is for discussion, I am not saying we shouldn't discuss.  But is it your opinion that the mob can just discuss without any true knowledge of the situation?  Tom, Don, Chris, Zach and many others could set us straight in an instant about why the bunkers are better as blowouts and the hole is better as partial bunker. 

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