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Scott_Burroughs

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Jan/Feb issue of Links - GCA.com in print?
« on: January 07, 2002, 08:33:44 PM »
I opened my new issue of Links tonight only to feel like I'm looking at GCA.com in print.  Last month included our own Emperor ("golf architect groupie") pictured amongst other things, but here is what is included in the new issue:

Cover:  "Explaining the Redan Hole and seven other 'standard' designs they'll never quit building"

page 6:  Jack Purcell, President and Publisher mentioning last year's Archipalooza and talking about how their magazine influences (and read widely by) famous architects.

page 20: editorial on design-jargon junkies with timeline about evolution of design.  "1999: Golfclubatlas.com comes on-line, the first Web-site for course-design junkies."  "2002: Someone like you plays a Redan-style par 3 the strategically correct way, makes a birdie and tells everybody at the hors-d'oeuvres table how smart he is."

page 22:  Nick Faldo article on thinking strategically

page 39: pic of Jim Engh

page 52: article on renovating Ross courses the correct way.

page 58: article by Jeff Mingay on architect Vernon Macan.

page 60: article (from cover) by Brian Silva on "explaining the Raynor Standards" and goes through (as George Bahto did here) the Redan, Biarritz, Cape, etc. with pics of #4 at NGLA (and a pic of a remarkably similar redan at Slammer & Squire at WGV), Biarritz' Yale #9 and Black Creek #17, Mid Ocean cape, and North Berwick's original redan.  Also article on why originals aren't always the best versions.

page 68:  article on less-famous but talented architects like Doak and his own Archipalooza.  Picture taken at Archipalooza of Doak talking to (I'm almost positive) Ran Morrissett(!).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:01 PM by -1 »

JayC

Re: Jan/Feb issue of Links - GCA.com in print?
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2002, 09:27:11 AM »
Scott,
Probably related would be a new book I noticed the other day on Amazon.co.uk. entitled
"Classic Golf Hole Design:Using the Greatest Holes as a Blueprint for Modern Courses". (Graves)
They say it'll be out 10 June, 2002, published by John Wiley & Sons Inc. ISBN: 0471413720.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

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Re: Jan/Feb issue of Links - GCA.com in print?
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2002, 10:24:06 AM »
Here's a link to the Jeff Mingay article:  http://www.linksmagazine.com/main.cfm?include=detail&storyid=161442

It's interesting that when The Emperor got his pic in Links last month, there were all kinds of responses.  When the person co-responsible for GCA gets his in, not a peep.  I guess it's old hat now.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Slag_Bandoon

Re: Jan/Feb issue of Links - GCA.com in print?
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2002, 11:41:41 AM »
 Nice article with some great quotes. Too bad his self proclaimed finest, Alderwood in Oregon,  doesn't exist anymore.  I guess I'll have to put on some travellin' music.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff Mingay

Re: Jan/Feb issue of Links - GCA.com in print?
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2002, 04:55:29 PM »
Slag,

"Great article with some nice quotes" would have been a more flattering description! Thanks anyway  ;)

I'm looking forward to receiving my copy of this issue.

As for Macan. Sadly, not much of his original work remains intact. Two of his self-professed three master works are completely gone: Alderwood and Langara (Vancouver). And the other, Shaughnessy, has been completely worked over.

If anyone is really interested in the boldness of Macan's original work, go check out the greens at Richmond G&CC in the Vancouver suburb of Richmond. They're wild. They remind me of miniature versions of Ross's inverted saucers at Pinehurst No. 2.

A few other Macan courses I'd be interested to hear about, if anyone out there knows anything about them, include:

Inglewood
Kenmore, Washington

Manito
Spokane, Washinton

Waverley
Portland, Oregon (revision?)

Fircrest
Tacoma, Washington

Astoria?

Broadmoor
Seattle, Washington

Colwood National (formerly Meadowbrook)
Portland, Oregon

Hillcrest
Boise, Idaho

San Geronimo
Napa, California

Purple Sage Muni
Caldwell, Idaho

Overlake
Medina, Washington

Sunland
Sequim, Washington
 
Lake Spanaway?

Yakima?
Washinton State

Wenawatchee (nine hole addition)
Washington State

jemingay@aol.com
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

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Re: Jan/Feb issue of Links - GCA.com in print?
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2002, 06:00:03 AM »
Hillcrest in Boise hosts a Buy.com event and Robert Muir Graves redesigned the course in 1968, but that's all I know.  It's private, so I haven't been able to play it while visiting my in-laws.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:01 PM by -1 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Jan/Feb issue of Links - GCA.com in print?
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2002, 06:17:06 AM »
Jeff
What about the California GC of SF? I used to live a few blocks from the course and I always thought it was mostly a Macan design -- and a very good one.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rich_Goodale

Re: Jan/Feb issue of Links - GCA.com in print?
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2002, 06:23:56 AM »
San GERONIMO!!!!!!!!

What a blast from the past!

Played there probably 10 times in the 70-'s 80's, for no other reasons than IT WAS THERE!

At that time whoever was responsible for the "maintenance meld" was dealing from a defective deck.  Fairways as hard as 3-day old porridge.  Greens that stimped out from 2-22 depending on the position of the sprinkler in relation to the natural slope.  Of course, this was big-time drought time in Marin County, so he or she shall be forgiven.

Huckster?  Gibster?  Any updates on this small part of my developing golfing resume?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Jan/Feb issue of Links - GCA.com in print?
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2002, 06:52:08 AM »
San Geronimo!!!!!!

And I thought I was the only one who screamed that repeatedly whilst playing that course.

Rich, did the full 18 exist when you played there?

It's an interesting course - maintenance is no longer an issue, they were taken over by a management company (not sure which one) who pumped mucho bucks into it and now it is top notch.  So is the price, too.  I kinda liked it the old way... hidden cheap gem, out in remote wilds of Marin.  It's still remote, but no longer hidden and surely no longer cheap.

I do like the course though - some very interesting holes, a few blind shots, great use of barrancas and water...

Add this to the list of worthwhile places we need to go before you head east.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SL_Solow

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Re: Jan/Feb issue of Links - GCA.com in print?
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2002, 07:19:52 AM »
Tom & Rich;  played California GC a little more than a year ago and I agree that it is interesting and worth playing.  Conditioning was fine notwithstanding the area wide nematode issue on some greens.  Also there was evidence of some significant tree removal which I was told aided in turf growth and lessened some prior feelings of claustrophobia
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Jan/Feb issue of Links - GCA.com in print?
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2002, 07:22:48 AM »
SL - it's been several years since I've played Cal Club - good to hear the tree cutback is being done.  I always felt sorta claustrophobic there... I drive past it on 280 all the time so I can see a bit of the work, and it looks good.

Nematodes are a huge issue near SF... very sad.  The greens at SFGC are being brutalized.  That doesn't take away the brilliance of that golf course, but it is sad to see in any case.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff Mingay

Re: Jan/Feb issue of Links - GCA.com in print?
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2002, 07:31:35 AM »
Scott,

Shows how colsely I follow the Buy.com Tour, eh! I think it was Muir Graves that also built a new 2nd green at Richmond in the early 1990s. There, at Richmond, you see 17 really interesting greens and then look at the 2nd and think, "What the hell is this?"

I imagine Hillcrest is a write-off now too.

Tom Mac,

As I understand, Macan did an extensive redesign of the California GC courses in 1925. But then, less than a decade later, several holes were forced to be redone when a new highway was routed through the course (must be 280, eh Tom?). This work was orchestrated by none other than, Dr. MacKenzie! Who, I think, also rebunkered many holes.

As for San Geronimo, I wonder how much Macan is left? They sould be thinking restoration!

 ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Jan/Feb issue of Links - GCA.com in print?
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2002, 08:11:41 AM »
Jeff M.:  BillV (redanman) is a former Cal Club member - when and if he sees this I'm sure he can shed light on the renovation history.  In any case, jeez 280 is really a great freeway, but the ruiner of several golf courses there... it's function in the history of SFGC is infamous...

As for San Geronimo being "restored", I was under the impression it was 9 holes only for quite awhile... I first played it in mid-80's and the talk was all about the "new back nine".  I don't know any of this for certain, however.

Cheers!

TH
Norcal Golfer and leaver of history to others who know better
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rich_Goodale

Re: Jan/Feb issue of Links - GCA.com in print?
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2002, 08:17:12 AM »
Tom

I'm almost sure that San GERONIMO!!!!! was 18 when I first played it around 1977 or so, but your posts stir a few long-neglected neurons that seem to be telling me that one of the 9's was prettty new at that time.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

jim_lewis

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Re: Jan/Feb issue of Links - GCA.com in print?
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2002, 08:38:00 AM »
Jeff:

I played the Broadmoor Golf Club is Seattle in the summer of 1999. I still have the scorecard and a copy of the ballot I submitted to GOLFWEEK, but I have lost my notes. My recollection would suggest that very little has been to the course since Macan designed it in 1927.  I played with a couple of long-time members in their eighties and they recalled only that John Steidel (a local architect) did some minor work back in the early 1980's.  The fact that the course still plays to 6300 yds form the back tees and that there are still two sets of tees, suggests that there certainly has not been any new tees built.  I recall that the first four holes all slope dramatically to the right. The course pretty much follows the contour of the land wit little evidence of eath moving. The par is 34-36 with five par 3's with remarkably varied lengths of 121, 155, 169, 195, and 225. I challenge anyone to name a course with more variety in length of threes. For that matter, the par fours range from 311 to 424 yards. However, the longest par 5 is only 501 yds. It is a fun members course but no challenge for strong players. While the club seems to be fairly prosperous, they don't seem to have a huge maintenance budget.
The strongest hole on the course is the 415yd par four 17th.

Bottom line:  I suspect this course is little changed since 1927.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

Ben Cowan-Dewar

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Re: Jan/Feb issue of Links - GCA.com in print?
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2002, 10:02:15 AM »
How good is Royal Colwood Jeff?  Has it changed dramatically?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

redanman (Guest)

Re: Jan/Feb issue of Links - GCA.com in print?
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2002, 04:57:52 AM »
Huckster

I-280 itself had no impact whatsoever on the CalClub.  The road down the hill to the north of the property (fergit the name) required re-design of holes 1-3 by RTJ (Sr I believe).  The re-design is pretty worthy.  The old timers (even before me) tell me the old #2 was one of the best par 4's in the Bay Area and given that #2 is one of the most sublime holes there now, I have always wondered just how good.  #1 was shortened about 60 or 70 yards and a new green was built.  As you drive by on the aforementioned but not named road, one can see the old tee location for the par 3 3rd.  We thought about restoring it back int the early 80's, but it would have only taken one well-placed shank off that tee with it directly exposed to the roadway to put the club out of business.

Of note, the original CalClub was located where Stonestown Mall is located just north of SFGC on 19th.  When it moved, the original property of the club was all the way from Skyline (CA 35) to El Camino!!!!  It was sold off parcel by parcel for peanuts over the years, the last for the So SF library just near the entrance, somehow associated with the placement of the roadway to preserve more of the course.

In the late '70s the members rebuffed an offer that would have been very generous by a group of Japanese businessmen who would have built a hotel on the hill in the triangle surrounded by holes 5-8.  Beaucoup bucks was refused by the membership as a move of the club to the Filoli (The Drew Carrington House in the Dynasty soap opera  on the San Mateo resevoir) property was possibly to be part of the move!

Interesting stuff if you've been to the locations in question, no Huck?

As for the rest of Links this month, the Raynor standards are quite superficial and the early editorial in the magazine even states that you should read these type of articles to appear interesting and knowledgable at cocktail parties. Does it bother anyone else that there was no mention madeof the original true meaning of the "Cape" hole, rather than what it has evolved into being called?  Even after describing how the green at NGLA juts out into the sea of sand around it?

Golf Architecture lite.  The dumbing down continues. GCA listed as the first website for golf archie junkies.  Now all the riff-raff may come here and learn a thing or two, for better or worse they can try to muddle through such current nonsense as the natural features thread which even I can't bring myself to read....

At least we're trendy now as Architecture is listed as the current stylish sub category of golf. :-X
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Jan/Feb issue of Links - GCA.com in print?
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2002, 06:25:58 AM »
Muchas gracias Bill!  The Cal Club history is indeed VERY interesting when you know how things stand and what's there in all these places today... I had a hunch 280 didn't effect the course, it seemed to me odd geographically that such would be the case... but anyway, thanks again  - very cool.

As for this being the FIRST architecture web site, I got a chuckle out of that also.  What were we doing all those years before GCA?

Oh well, I am very glad this site is what it is and many thanks once again to Ran in any case.

Golf course architecture cool... cocktail party conversation... I just can't see that amongst my normal crowd, for whom a redan still might as well be a sedan.  But who knows...

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rich_Goodale

Re: Jan/Feb issue of Links - GCA.com in print?
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2002, 10:48:53 AM »
Filoli!

Now that could have been an interesting blow-your-mind-away beautiful golf course!  But, would it have been "natural"...........???
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Doug Nickels

Re: Jan/Feb issue of Links - GCA.com in print?
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2002, 06:29:27 PM »
The original designer of the California Golf Club of San Francisco (at its present location) was Vernon Macan.  Construction started in February 1924. Mackenzie and Hunter completed remodeling work (American Golf Course Construction Company) in 1928.
RTJ Sr was hired in 1965 due to the creation of Westborourgh  Ave. along the north boundary of the property.  Hole #1 was not shortened but the green moved 300 feet to the right.  Hole #2 did move but was only shortened slightly.  Hole #3's tees moved and new green was built.  Hole #4's green moved back 150 yards and became a par 5.  Hole #5 keep the same green but changed to a par 4.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Jan/Feb issue of Links - GCA.com in print?
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2002, 12:35:19 PM »
Scott,

The Sandy Tatum interview should be required reading for every golfer, owner/developer, and manufacturer.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bill_McBride

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Re: Jan/Feb issue of Links - GCA.com in print?
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2002, 08:48:38 PM »
Rich and Tom H -- it's funny how maintenance can affect your perception of a course.  I drove out to San Geronimo from my Burlingame home to play there in maybe 1975. This was pre-drought, and there was such terrible drainage, every fairway practically underwater, that I hated it and never went back!  I have absolutely no memory of barrancas or blind shots, just one soggy foot after another, looking for plugged tee shots!

Agree about the rather superficial approach to the "Raynor" designs --- George Bahto's descriptions on this site are much more insightful and a lot more evocative of what's there.  Now when I see a psuedo-Redan (like a Keith Foster design in New Braunfels, TX called "The Bandit" -- it's got a par 3 which is named "Redan" on the scorecard and was dead straight on, no tilt, no diagonal bunker, no rear bunker), I just chuckle.  Thanks to George!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

W.H. Cosgrove

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Re: Jan/Feb issue of Links - GCA.com in print?
« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2002, 06:14:35 PM »
Fircrest in Tacoma Washington is a nice golf course.  Ken Still on a recent Golf Channel interview metioned it in every other sentence.  

The course has been fooled with by greens committees over the years and has been marred by a road widening project that destroyed some of the charm of it's second and third holes.  A committee decided it was a good idea to plant small fruit trees as 150 markers within the last couple of years.  Big mistake!  

The course has several very strong par 4's.  The seventeenth is highlighted by a perched green.  Greens are typically boldly contoured.  Interstingly all four of the par threes are uphill and the putting surfaces are hidden from the tee.  The par 5's are not particularly strong.  

Fircrest hired a young Superintendent, Eric Thompson, two years ago.  Thompson has undertaken to remove some of the more onerous features added over the years.  Improvements have been made to the rear of the sixteenth green, to bukering on the third and to the seventeeth and second tees.  

Thompson seems to have the best interests of the club in mind.  It is my understanding that John Harbottle prepared a long range plan to aid in the future plans for the golf course.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »