a spirit of community

[John_D._Bernhardt]

I just had lunch with GCAer Mike Young and one of the concepts that i am trying to achieve on my project is one of community. Mike was allover it in spades and we both wondered why it is not a part of the gca discusion group. Whether one looks at St. Andrews, Gullane or any of a number of Scottish towns, the golf course is the town center, the focal point of the town. I feel this is missing in american golf and should be part of any master planning. I would love to discuss this in greater detail with any who care to go there.

[THuckaby2]

JDB - wouldn't you say this exists to some extent at Bandon?  

I love the concept also.  Here's hoping you can make it happen in Louisiana.

TH

[Tyler Kearns]

John,

In North America many suburban developments are planned with a golf course running throughout the "community". Albeit, selling houses is usually the prime objective, and the golf course is routed on the remaining land. This can be inferred upon reading John Strawn's book "Driving the Green", depicting the construction of such a scenario at Ironhorse in Florida. The realty set aside for housing lots were set in stone, and in fact encroached upon the golf course in an unappealing manner. This situation leads to tension rather than harmony between the two functions of the community.  

Unfortunately, these developments lack the essence of community that your probably desiring. Generally speaking, the suburban development in North America lacks the intimacy and closeness with ones' neighbors because it seeks to remove itself from the urban fabric into some sort of rural utopia. Although I have never visited St. Andrews, the perception of the town (seen through the eyes of ABC cameras at the British Open), is one of harmony between the built environment and the Old Course. By that I mean, if the golf course were removed, the town of Fife would lose some of its character. Conversly, the opposite would ring true. That seems like a healthy relationship between golf course and its urban surrounds. Sadly, that is the exception rather than the rule in North America.

Because suburban communities tend to lack the closer social relationships of the inner city, it seems hard to imagine a community feel on the outskirts of the urban metropolis. It could work nicely in smaller towns and communities which could then grow and evolve around the golf course. This evolution is not as possible in the suburbs due to the lack of real urban infrastructure at the periphery of cities.

Maybe I'm just bitter about urban sprawl!

[RJ_Daley]

John, do you think that some of these "golf retirement communities" like Green Valley in Tuscon or the Villages in Florida approach that concept as you describe many of the GB&I villages?  I haven't had the opportunity to go over there yet, but from what I read, (particularly in the "Links of Heaven" book of Ireland) the community involvement and feeling of personal connection is central to their philosophy and really keeps the perspective on the game and its fields of play in proper order.

One of our GCAers, (Mike O'Neil) had written a clever and highly entertaining short story about a fictional village-community in Ireland (Dunnelly) and the doings of its inhabitants and how all things are related to their links course (Sinecura Golf Club).  I hope he will see this and e-mail you a copy.  It is a riot!

[Rich_Goodale]

John

Count me in on this conversation, which, if I'm not mistaken, we touched on in our meeting last year.  Let me start with a dose of my concept of reality.

While you and I and most everybody on this site will look at St. Andrews or Gullane or Dornoch or many other such places as "golf-centred" communities, this is not hte case with all people in those communities.  I would guess that only a very small minority of the University community in St. Andrews, for example, play or even care about golf.  To them, St. Andrews is a town of their friends and their professors and a bloody history and beaches and pubs and shops and theatre, and also golf.  Once you gt away from Pilmour Place the tacky golf shops and Ye Olde Niblick guest houses segue quickly into newsagents and coffee houses and student flats.

Likewise, of the 1200 or so residents in Dornoch, only 100-150 or so belong to the golf club, and many of those do so for social and/or business reasons and rarely play.  Some other percentage whose livelihood is based on tourism are affected indirectly, but if you spend a lot of time in the hotels in town you will find far fewer golfers than you might think, even at the height of the season.  The largest hotel in town, the magnificently underutilized old railway hotel, the Dornoch, is filled with old age pensioner bus parties who only know the golf course as the view out their window and the place across which they walk to get to the beach.

But, there are some things you can do........

1.  Build the course as close to the commercial center of the town as possible.  Ideally, within walking distance
2.  Aggressively court local members and offer them low cost annual memberships
3.  Lavish attention and low price golf and golf instruction on the children of the town.  Even if they leave town or if they stay do not grow up to be members, they will be invaluable ambassadors
4.  Jump start the "community" feeling by enticing ambassadors from outside to visit and enjoy and even help define the experience.  GCA would be a good place to start!

Keep us informed and good luck.

Rich

[Jim_Kennedy]

John,
Our focal points were ballparks when we were growing up. Golf was much more a private affair in those days, at least where I grew up. No munis for 30 miles. Even in areas where munis existed they didn't close down on Sundays and invite the townsfolk to stroll around to their hearts content.
If you wish to create a sense of community built around a golf course then I suggest you approach it that way. Close the thing down one day a week and invite kite fliers, dog walkers, bird watchers, young lovers, old lovers, joggers, jugglers, gymnasts, band members, frisbee throwers, kids playing catch, etc., make it feel more like a park.
Post a few simple rules about staying off the greens and other sensitive areas and you are on your way.  

[George Pazin]

A good 19th hole seems like a must for fostering good community relations.

Are many courses in Scotland closed for golf & open to the public on Sunday like TOC? Unfortunately, you could never do this in the US for $$$ reasons, but another cool idea.

I have about a thousand dreams for the future, but one of them is as follows: find a closed down steel mill (or something similar) in western PA(shouldn't be too hard), clean the area out, put in a muni golf course with a suitable 19th, & make the rates for locals different ala Torrey Pines. Try not to laugh too hard - I've always been a big dreamer - just ask the folks in the Yale admissions office.

[George Pazin]

Damn, Jim Kennedy beat me to the punch - see what dreaming all the time gets you.

[SPDB]

To a certain extent hasn't Pinehurst done this? I understand that it was a resort town before the course, but then again St. Andrews was known more as a university town than for its golf course.

I think the acid test is if you can mention the name without the golf course being the first thing that enters your mind. If it doesn't, then the community is not centered around its golf course.

Sadly, many are right here that this concept has been done in America in the form of golfing communities.

[Bob_Huntley]

It should be remembered that TOC is on common ground, that is, the townsfolk own the place. It doesn't go down well with the locals,  when remonstrating with a pedestrian on Granny Clarke's Wynd.

Jim Kennedy's suggestion, that on one day a week the place be open to all and sundry makes good sense. Nothing stokes the politics of envy  more than exclusion.

[Mike Erdmann]

I don't agree with TKearns' distaste for suburban development, but I think he's right in that the Scottish sense of community in these small towns is largely the result of the pattern of development.  In these small Scottish towns, you have a fairly compact urban center and the residents have a greater tendency to walk and aren't as reliant on their cars.  North Berwick is another great example of a course with close proximity to the center of town where the golf course has great importance to the town itself.  It'd be fun to see this same type of thing pulled off here in the States, but I think our culture is so centered around the car that I just don't know if it could work.  Plenty of attempts have been made of late at making new-urbanism work, but I think their success has been questionable at best.

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Mike, you hit some of this on point. The new urbanism has produced some concepts which I am trying to capture. It is also working in several places including my modest city of 200,000, 500,000 metro area and also Seaside Florida on the resort level. The idea of carports in the back, creating the front of houses and sidewalks as points of community interaction. Intentional planning to move people, traffic and interest to the center of the community. ie the golf course and pro shop/clubhouse, the sense of neighborhood and oneness with your town/community. The Scottish towns evolved this way, but were not the modal. they are just examples we can grab to show how golf and the new urbanism can be brought together. Rich, I like what you said. but I do feel that the game maybe a little more of thei part of the glue of the village and as Bob notes the public ownership. I cannot go that far, but there seems to be ways to create that same sense of public park or natural area to become part of the emotional fabric of those who live there. this is found in beach towns where all come to the beach for sunset each day. I have found that in many places from Key West to Cannon Beach and Brookings Oregon on the way to Bandon this summer. Tom. H Bandon can have this, but we will see what Mike's vision is. TJ I have not been to either so I cannot comment. I can say, I feel the American public, as noted above has lost its desire for the suburban developments that have dominated growth sense WW II. The idea of tying nature ,recreation and community into a well planned package has appeal. Naturally this makes golf the focal point and homes on the perimater. the task in how best to intertwine them creating vistas, accesss and sense of being a part of the game without interfering with those playing it.

[RJ_Daley]

John, I think that what you are driving at, and maybe taking it further to what Rich's ideas are of the community with golf as a part of a greater whole is on the right track.  I will again mention the passages of the book, "Links of Heaven" that reflect upon the Irish communities and their courses like Dooks, Connemara, Ceann Sibeal, and Waterville.  Although they vary in degree of the extent of the public's real investment from total community project to a favorite son's vision to become adopted and co opted by the community, the point is that they fostered the community's investment of their hearts and pocketbooks.  The golf course becomes an important although partial aspect of the community's identity.  Their youngsters, their sportsman, their laborers, caddies, innkeepers - all are tied in some way to the golf course whether they play golf or not.  

Then, add the identity of a figure like Eddie Hackett, the designer from the community's own stock of people, with no personal ego and the shared pride that one of their own designed these wonderful links, and the legend and lore will always be present in the village's history relative to what they all feel they own and created together.  They want to - are eager to share their links with you and I.

Anathema to that Old World Community spirit are the luxurious gated community golf courses of our country designed by a brand name architect, where the only thing that is truly available to share with others are slick perfect photographs of showcase mansions and Elysian golfing fields of perfectly manicured green turf and landscaped framed fairways that plead for attention and envy.  No one is humble or modest behind those gates, no one slaps you (your town's dogcatcher) on the back, is genuinely glad to see you, and bets you a pint of brewski on the outcome of your anticipated match.  

As I have said so many times before, one of the real community courses that mimics what I have read about in that book is Wild Horse; designed by a couple of guys from down the road, born of a modest community stock sale effort, modest and understated in every way, and focused on the quality and simple pleasure of just golf that they have created as a community and are so willing to share with all comers.

John, I know I got off on a romantic track beyond your premise, but doesn't your ideal have some comparison with the model city of Frank Llyod Wright's Usonia?

[RJ_Daley]

I'm sorry to have to go on a bit because I didn't get more focused on the questions John raises relative to his situation.  

It seems to me that you can't necessarily glom on to a suburban identity (pop. 200K+) where you want to build your golf course because it would be too broad based and suburban life generally is not focused on particular cultural identities to tie onto.  What you need is a widely recognisable piece of that community to SHARE with townspeople and visitors that love good golf AND appreciate interesting places.  

Off the top of my head, what you need is a crafty old Cajun designer, and an investment vehicle to get that enclave of local people to buy into the project financially and emotionally to such an extent that they become your ambassadors by way of their pride in themselves, what they have to share, and a cultivated commitment to golf at the community course.  Is Justin Wilson available to design your course and cook at your grille room?  aaahyieee!

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Oh yes, Justin Wilson in the kitchen and Clifton Chenier and his red hot Lousiana band. sadly both are gone to crawfish heaven. I believe Justin has and know Clifton has. I did not mean to drift so far from the golf. Yet the search of how to blend and create a oneness with nature, the game and a residential community is a noble one which I feel inside is closer to being realized than my poor command of the language allows to be communicated here. I am envious of how well many of you write and while the kid here can talk, scratch golfer, I am a mere double bogie golfer with the pen.

[Slag_Bandoon]

John,
  You may go to the nearest high school and see if they have a golf team and if they do ask for volunteers to get input and encourage them to get their parents involved also.  Tell them your vision of community and the importance of having an outdoor commons.   Heck, if this works, you could find yourself in Huey Long's chair.

  On Rocanante !

[Jeff_McDowell]

Mixed use zoning is a concept of new urbanism that I think would work well in a golf community. If you want people to interact and keep them out of cars, you need to locate the most common things (grocery, post office, golf, etc) within walking distance.

This never happens in typical suburban development, because planners put SFR in one area, commercial in another, high-density in another, etc.

The idea of people walking from their apartment above a retail shop to the nearby golf course would be great. I hope this works out for you.

[Jim_Kennedy]

John,
A very good example on a large scale is at the Villages in Florida that was mentioned earlier by RJ Daley. There is a real sense of community at this place. It was the vision of a single man and has flourished tremendously. They have every conceivable amenity, from free nightly concerts to their own hospital.

[Dan King]

Justin Wilson passed late last year.  I think it was September or October.


http://www.justinwilson.com/

I think kids are the secret to building community. The more you can do for kids the more it will feel like some place the whole family gets together.  And it isn't just tournaments for kids, but a chance for them to have free run of the course, a place for them to have fun and try different things on there own. Too many courses pay lip service to being kid friendly, which is usually events that are far to organized. Kids need to be able to just be kids away from adult supervision.

Joos-tain kin you hear me?
are you in Heaven's glory?
teachin dem angels how to cook?
with peppers and all dat wine you took

So many years of watchin your shows
my culinary skills you sure made grow
but best of all you made me smile
all dem jokes all da while

I add peppers to everything
tabasco sure makes me sing
because a Cajun on tv
taught me cookin's naturally

and whenever i have a doubt
i add hot sauce and never pout
i hear Justin say to me, cookin's easy,
I gar-an-tee!
 --Rosemary Basil

[Rich_Goodale]

John

Dance with the girl that brought you there.

Don't try to recreate Dornoch in the sandhills of NC or Lahinch in the bayous.  Start with something interesting that is not golf.   Justin Wilson would have been perfect--god rest his soul.  He was one of those poeple in the world who made life worth not only living, but trying, inexorably but successfully, to improve.....

To me, without the University, St. Andrews would be Carnoustie.  Without the Cathedral, Dornoch would be Brora.  Without Wall Street, NGLA would be Bandon Dunes.  Great golf, but just a wee bit something lacking in the communities....

Find something to build on BEFORE you build your golf course.  Cuisine, Art, Music--you've got tons of that down in La.  Then, and only then, meld the golf into the community.

And, as Dan so rightly says, you cannot give too little focus to the children.  Without them our communities are no more than incipient mausoleums.

[Bill McBride]

John, Peachtree City south of Atlanta and just east of Newnan GA, my ancestral home, is a good example of a town which has golf courses wrapped around and close to most functions of a nice size small town.  I guess 40,000 or so.  As the real estate was built, they kept adding golf courses and I think now have four.  People, including kids, zip around the town in their golf carts, which go all the way throughout the area on paths for carts and bikes.  Most single family homes have a fairway in the back.  There are also apartment complexes and retail / office areas.

Somehow I don't think this is what you are looking for.  That is one hell of an ambitious mixed use long term development.

I like the idea of getting kids involved, local golf teams, encouraging nine-hole after work leagues, golf clubs a la the UK using your course as their club.  All this would help establish the club as part of the fabric of that part of Lafayette.  All this would be in direct contrast to the usual southern country club, and also hopefully in contrast to the CCFAD.  How it all shakes out in terms of rounds / year and $$$ / year is the issue.   Long term you would be growing your future customer base from the ground up.  But long term we're all dead!  Can you fund the cash flow with lower fees?

Love the way you are thinking about this.  I am so sick of the CCFAD mentality, maybe it's the CCFAD/Enron mentality.

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Bill, that is a little more than we have to work with. The other guys are touching the theme with our culture, food and music. There is no question that I have been playing with different ideas of using our culture and natural materials of the area to be part of the nexus that joins the golf and the traditions of the game to create a community in an appealing manner which will gain strength with time. I agree that an inclusive policy to children is essential. I wish you gentlemen had know Clifton Chenier and his band. One of his great songs started " I am a hog for you baby and I am going to root you all night long".lol

[John_D._Bernhardt]

On another note, it may be of interest here how difficult it has been to convey the message to the design team that the two parts of the project are to work in harmony together to their mutual benifit and therefore to the betterment of the whole. It is almost as if the golf side feels the residential communty will only hurt and damage the golf. The real Estate people seem to see golf only as a price enhancement issue and how few people desire to understand both.

[Bill_McBride]

John, you must have missed my statement half way through: "Somehow I don't think this what what you're looking for."

I don't think you're looking for a Peachtree City -- maybe a better idea is for the real estate to be in clusters around the clubhouse as center of life, walkable, with multi-use "parks" instead of private yards.  That would tie it all together.  That old model of every backyard a fairway may not be the ideal.

Did that song have the line, "I'm a hog for you baby, can't get enough of your love?"  

[Bill_McBride]

One more thought -- get a copy of a book titled, "Suburban Nation, The Rise of Sprawl and the Decline of the American Dream," by Andres Duany, Elizabeth Plater-Zyberk and Jeff Speck.  Jacket description, "..for anyone interested in fighting sprawl and promoting smart growth, this important new book is essential reading."  It advocates planned neighborhoods rather than out-of-control sprawl, with walking between homes, parks, retail, business rather than blind reliance on the automobile.  Such planned communities as Celebration, another cool place in Maryland, Seaside, have resulted from such thinking.  I'll loan you my copy when you get over here next, it's interesting reading and written by architects with real ideas about accomplishing this goal.  Our North Hill Pensacola neighborhood, with sidewalks and front porches, is an example of the best way to live.  The other end is gated communities with walls separating haves and have-nots.

I envy you the many challenges of planning a community with golf as its intertwining center. Done the right way, I think you'll see people flocking to it!