Which type of player, stick or hack, adds the most expense to design and mainten

[John Kavanaugh]

Doesn't the possibility exist that fewer tees would be needed at a course built for only scratch players?

I'd be willing to move back if the "sticks" would be willing to move up.

Why does it have to be a quid pro quo?  Isn't that how we end up with five sets of tees, which I enjoy btw.  I am certain that I am the only member of Victoria National that has played from every one of our 120+ tees.  They have never removed a very back tee but have taken out several very front tees, it always makes me sad to see them go.  note:  In betting games I love to play from tees that I have and my opponents have not.  There are often hidden secrets to the shortest of tees as they are the most illogical of design.

[Anthony Gray]

  The same

  Anthony

Anthony,

Don't you think money could be saved if nothing was maintained 150 yds out from each tee, or if greens were much smaller?

  Its a very good point. Sure.

  Anthony

[Garland Bayley]

Where's the hate?  I've never seen a high capper complain about those things I listed..but I have seen plenty of single digits or less complain about all those things at least once...

If you ever get to Memphis,I'll be happy to disprove your thesis.

...

Kalen doesn't have a statistically valid sample as he primarily plays munis, and secondarily publics. He doesn't get on privates very often where everyone thinks they know what's best for the course no matter what their handicap. Especially proprietary memberships where they feel they own the place instead of the 1/x00th of the place.

[Kalen Braley]

Where's the hate?  I've never seen a high capper complain about those things I listed..but I have seen plenty of single digits or less complain about all those things at least once...

If you ever get to Memphis,I'll be happy to disprove your thesis.

...

Kalen doesn't have a statistically valid sample as he primarily plays munis, and secondarily publics. He doesn't get on privates very often where everyone thinks they know what's best for the course no matter what their handicap. Especially proprietary memberships where they feel they own the place instead of the 1/x00th of the place.

I've already stipulated such that privates would be a different mantra based on communal ownership..


Yet oddly my opinion is based much more so on actual reality....
   
...as the vast majority of rounds played in the US are played on publicly accessible courses, not private ones.   

[George Pazin]

Would the mythical course with no maintenance out to 150 follow the same practice in the rough areas everywhere?

Tom D -

What was the impetus for PV cleaning up the waste areas?

[jeffwarne]

Would the mythical course with no maintenance out to 150 follow the same practice in the rough areas everywhere?

Tom D -

What was the impetus for PV cleaning up the waste areas?

If you don't they become forests.....

[Mike_Young]

John,
I think it boils down to where the player, stick or hack plays golf when he is away from his club.  So many consider resort golf at places like Whistling Straits, Reynolds Plantation, TPC Sawgrass,  PGA National etc as the top notch golf courses.  They never play the places mentioned here such as a Merion etc.  They come back to their local clubs and want what they saw at the resorts.  And the resorts spend so much money on the "edges" of the courses plus the playing surfaces and when this is brought back to clubs it increases maintenance.

[Peter Pallotta]

I think it may be generational, like wealth itself.  If you're a 3rd or 4th generation stick, your confident and comfortable enough to take the high road, and graciously accept all sorts of courses and conditions.  But if you're a nouveau-stick, you might have a bit of a chip on your shoulder and feel the need to prove to everyone else that you belong with the stick-crowd, and so will be very sensitive to slights and signs of disrespect.

Peter 

[Bill Brightly]

The sticks, without a doubt. It is not the cost of the back tees and I'll grant you that they are cheaper to build and maintain than the first 30 yards of "useless" fairway. Rather, it is the demands the sticks make for excellent fairways, consistent bunkers, and greens that roll as fast as possible. All of that adds huge cost on terms of chemicals, machinery and manpower.

Amd most importantly, the sticks have big mouths and are not shy about expressing themselves, while the hackers generally will remain quite.

[jeffwarne]

It has nothing to do with golf ability, and EVERYTHING to do with trying to prove yours is bigger (and better)than anyone elses
Pity the poor superintendant whose green's(or for that matter house) chairman just returned from Kohler

[John Kavanaugh]

I said this earlier but the hate speech against the better player needs to stop. What is most confusing is that when we get a truly fine player on the site like a David Egan or Steve Scott you turn into slobbering fan boys that make their participation difficult. You can't have it both ways.

[Matt Day]

for us non americans what is the definition of a stick and a hack, is it simply handicap?

[John Kavanaugh]

for us non americans what is the definition of a stick and a hack, is it simply handicap?

Matt,

They are both somewhat derogatory terms. It is more than handicap in a know it when you see it kind of way. I think most people see a stick as someone who will beat them by 3 shots on a very good day and a hack as someone who they beat by 15. Most of us are just one swing from being a stick and a horrible disfiguring accident from being a hack. In our own minds that is.

[Adam Clayman]

Doesn't the possibility exist that fewer tees would be needed at a course built for only scratch players?

.    And there'd be a hell of a lot less courses, further reducing costs. Revenue, since you're the patron saint of that subject would fall off the charts with 90% fewer golfers.  Ability is inconsequential to the TV watcherr.  Augusta syndrome affect.

[John Kavanaugh]

Doesn't the possibility exist that fewer tees would be needed at a course built for only scratch players?

.    And there'd be a hell of a lot less courses, further reducing costs. Revenue, since you're the patron saint of that subject would fall off the charts with 90% fewer golfers.  Ability is inconsequential to the TV watcherr.  Augusta syndrome affect.

Adam,

I'm not saying it is a good idea to build for either the hack or stick. I was curious if the answer was as obvious as seemed. I also wonder who bunkers are really built for, true sticks seem to prefer them to grass.

[Jud_T]

John,

I have nothing against strong players and I don't think there's any negative connotation to the term stick.  Hell, I wish I was one.  But it's pretty simple IMHO.  It's a 6200 yard muni (or classic private that's considered too short by today's standards, i.e. Shoreacres) vs. Butler National.

[Jeff_Brauer]

John,

This is actually one of the best questions ever asked here.  My first tendency when I saw this yesterday was to parrot TD's response.  Since you mentioned design, I figured it was  a new course, not pushing some back tees back. 

And yes, while you narrow up at the tee in a real estate course, you have to figure that at 7500 yards or whatever, you still add tens of acres to the design.

You also have to add irrigation back there, grass more, maybe add cart path to get back there, etc.  Maintenance, once established, for the first 150 yards can be reduced (if surrounding houses don't object) by planting natives.  Typically, the cost of running the irrigation line cannot be reduced.  You might not have to run the cart path to the back tee given the 1% who typically play them.

I never thought of building multiple tees as adding tee cost.  Based on play levels, you need to build tees of certain size to stand up, whether its one big one or several smaller ones.  I have taken to building back tees (except par 3's) about 15 x 15 feet and even those don't see their share of action in most cases.

Statistically, fw and corridor width really aren't that much different for all players.  The "extra" cost of those comes from going up a row in sprinklers and/or not matching to them well, necessitating even more of them.

While we try to build courses for all people, the length that better players now hit it has stretched the amount of golf course needed from maybe 400 yards to 6-800 yards extra, specifically for them. 

[George Pazin]

You also have to add irrigation back there, grass more, maybe add cart path to get back there, etc.  Maintenance, once established, for the first 150 yards can be reduced (if surrounding houses don't object) by planting natives.  Typically, the cost of running the irrigation line cannot be reduced.  You might not have to run the cart path to the back tee given the 1% who typically play them.

Doesn't this contradict John's edict?

I don't have a real problem with not maintaining the first 150 yards, or the farther out rough areas, if they are truly not maintained - ie not seeded with lush grass, not irrigated to promote long thick rough, etc, not adding artificial water (other than perhaps an irrigation pond somewhere). If you can find it and play it, it's generally good by me. If I were bettin' man, I'd wager that it's better players that want to see lush thick irrigated and maintained rough and pristine bunkers and even pristine waste areas, but I could be wrong there.

John, the first step to lessening the "hate" for sticks is to simply stop dividing everyone into categories. Most people I know are not nearly that one-dimensional.

Sorry I missed Steve Scott posting on here. David Eger used to post a lot more on here before he joined the Champions Tour; can't blame him for having better things to do with his time. I'm looking forward to the day I can play more and post less almost as much as John is...

[Bruce Katona]

Expense to the maintenance dept begins upon play in the Spring once annual dues are collected.  In a perfect world, dues would be paid, no rounds played  and a minimal staff would maintain the turf to look Augusta-like.  throw use play/use and the proforma gets all out of kilter.

Outside of the perfect world above, wear and tear is noticed by the customer 1st on the tee box.  teeing areas need to be large enough to reseed/replant the worn areas..

Planting of natives the 1st 150 yards from the mens tees sounds great, but on a public course that would be a disaster as play would be slowed by the players in looking for mishit tee balls.  Better to mow the turf at fair rough or 1st cut height so the customer can quickly find and play a misthit shot.  Same for fairways; wide corridors with faiway and 1st cut so the average customer can quickly find and play his/her ball.  Moving 3-4 additional foursomes through per day during the season should offset any additional cost to turf mainenance, fertilizer, seed, etc.

[Kalen Braley]

Based on the responses in this thread, it looks like the sticks are to blame by an approx 4 to 1 vote differential.

Pretty resounding indictment!! 

[Charlie Goerges]

I think it may be generational, like wealth itself.  If you're a 3rd or 4th generation stick, your confident and comfortable enough to take the high road, and graciously accept all sorts of courses and conditions.  But if you're a nouveau-stick, you might have a bit of a chip on your shoulder and feel the need to prove to everyone else that you belong with the stick-crowd, and so will be very sensitive to slights and signs of disrespect.

Peter 

Absolute Gold Jerry!

[Charlie Goerges]

This is like McDonalds complaining that they have to buy so much more packaging because fat people are eating so many big macs. They'd obviously save on packaging costs if they only had skinny people as customers who only shared salads with their significant others.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Bruce,

When I do back tees requiring native carry, I usually put the other tees off to the side, and give them at least 2 sprinklers wide of continuous fw and/or turf.  JK seems to think you can narrow the area down and add back tees, but if you want to save or plant natives, it does take extra width, even at the tee, at least in most cases.

That avoids the problem of average guys and natives.  As I said, width is good for average play, and I understand that.  I keep track of the worst kind of player - long hitter who sprays it.  (Shorter hitters don't spray as much)  Keeping those guys in play requires at least 4, if not 5 row irrigation and turf that wide (275-300 feet wide)

Of course, the real cost is driven up by not only wild golfers, but golfers who like it green.  Its not even the 4-5 rows of sprinklers that is that expensive, its the pipe size required to water all of it every night.  

This Texas drought again teaches how little water might be needed.  We are consulting at a course that only has/uses 200,000 GPD when the text book and average system would give him capacity for 4-5X that for this weather.  If, after all this summer of 100+ heat, his fw are only slightly off green, but of course roughs are brown, but this is the extreme.

[Garland Bayley]

This is like McDonalds complaining that they have to buy so much more packaging because fat people are eating so many big macs. They'd obviously save on packaging costs if they only had skinny people as customers who only shared salads with their significant others.

Touche' Charlie!

I wonder how many big macs Barney eats?