Which type of player, stick or hack, adds the most expense to design and mainten

[John Kavanaugh]

ance?

[Anthony Gray]

  The same

  Anthony

[JMEvensky]

The self-professed stick who's really a hack.

[John Kavanaugh]

  The same

  Anthony

Anthony,

Don't you think money could be saved if nothing was maintained 150 yds out from each tee, or if greens were much smaller?

[Mike Hendren]

Us hacks:

Make few ballmarks.
Carefully replace our massive divots that can't go undetected.
Often hit approaches from the rough, thereby preserving pristine fairways.
Carefully rake our two/three bunker divots.
Pick up our tees, broken or not.
Don't require fairway cuts behind the green.
Can't reach fairway bunkers from the tee.

[John Kavanaugh]

Us hacks:

Make few ballmarks.
Carefully replace our massive divots that can't go undetected.
Often hit approaches from the rough, thereby preserving pristine fairways.
Carefully rake our two/three bunker divots.
Pick up our tees, broken or not.
Don't require fairway cuts behind the green.
Can't reach fairway bunkers from the tee.

And finish in 2:15.  Hacky dream world.

[Jud_T]

Guys who insist on tipping it out at 7000+ but only scare 80 twice a year.

[Kalen Braley]

Us hacks:

Make few ballmarks.
Carefully replace our massive divots that can't go undetected.
Often hit approaches from the rough, thereby preserving pristine fairways.
Carefully rake our two/three bunker divots.
Pick up our tees, broken or not.
Don't require fairway cuts behind the green.
Can't reach fairway bunkers from the tee.

Michael agreed,

We are indeed cheaper from both a design and maintainence perspective.  In addition to your list.

Us hacks:

Don't require extra money be spent on our own special tee boxes so the course isn't "too easy"
Don't whine and insist that extra money be spent on the greens to be kept at 10 or above on the stimp meter.  8 is just fine with us.
Don't demand extra money to be spent to ensure all the bunkers are kept at the same consistency.
Don't wish the architect had spent extra money to flatten out the humps and bumps in the fairway for "fairer" lies.
Don't buy a new driver every year that makes current course lengths obsolete that much quicker which in turns requires even more new tee boxes to be built. 
Don't whine about having the yardage marked on every sprinkler head which is extra incurred costs during design.
Don't need to have extra money spent in maintainence costs so every fairway lie is "perfect"


I could go on forever.... 

[John Kavanaugh]

Guys who insist on tipping it out at 7000+ but only scare 80 twice a year.

Jud,

Do you really believe it costs more to build some back tees than it costs to maintain the first 150 yds of every hole for the people who can not get the ball airborn?  18 tees at 900 square feet each is just over 1/3 of an acre.  18 fairways 150 yds long and 30 yds wide is over 5 and 1/2 acres.

[John Kavanaugh]

Us hacks:

Make few ballmarks.
Carefully replace our massive divots that can't go undetected.
Often hit approaches from the rough, thereby preserving pristine fairways.
Carefully rake our two/three bunker divots.
Pick up our tees, broken or not.
Don't require fairway cuts behind the green.
Can't reach fairway bunkers from the tee.

Michael agreed,

We are indeed cheaper from both a design and maintainence perspective.  In addition to your list.

Us hacks:

Don't require extra money be spent on our own special tee boxes so the course isn't "too easy"
Don't whine and insist that extra money be spent on the greens to be kept at 10 or above on the stimp meter.  8 is just fine with us.
Don't demand extra money to be spent to ensure all the bunkers are kept at the same consistency.
Don't wish the architect had spent extra money to flatten out the humps and bumps in the fairway for "fairer" lies.
Don't buy a new driver every year that makes current course lengths obsolete that much quicker which in turns requires even more new tee boxes to be built. 
Don't whine about having the yardage marked on every sprinkler head which is extra incurred costs during design.
Don't need to have extra money spent in maintainence costs so every fairway lie is "perfect"


I could go on forever.... 

Let's curb the hate and stick with the facts.  There are courteous, respectful golfers of all abilities.

[John Kavanaugh]

Doesn't the possibility exist that fewer tees would be needed at a course built for only scratch players?

[Kalen Braley]

John,

Where's the hate?  I've never seen a high capper complain about those things I listed..but I have seen plenty of single digits or less complain about all those things at least once...


P.S.  We would indeed need less tee boxes if sticks were happy with the current tee boxes.  Remember the ones that all of us hacks play were there 1st as originally designed, not visa versa. 

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

Where's the hate?  I've never seen a high capper complain about those things I listed..but I have seen plenty of single digits or less complain about all those things at least once...


P.S.  We would indeed need less tee boxes if sticks were happy with the current tee boxes.  Remember the ones that all of us hacks play were there 1st as originally designed, not visa versa. 

Kalen,

Please go start your own thread.  This is not about how much smarter bad golfers are.

[Kalen Braley]

Besides John,

You miss the most important point.  Without the hacks, the game wouldn't exist because the hacks comprise at least 80% of the golfing population, and play the majority of golf rounds keeping courses open.  Without us, the sticks would have very very few places to play.

[Kevin Jackson]

Jud,

It has come up before on other threads, but what is wrong with someone playing from ~7000 yds. and not breaking 80 all that often.  For example, I elect to play from 7000 yds. regularly but have only broken 80 twice in 2 years (78,79).  I don't have an official handicap, but I call myself a 12. However, I can hit my tee shots ~280, 5-iron 195, PW 135, etc.  I choose to play from those tees because they typically give me a wide range of approach yardages.  If I play from say 6500 I would hit the same short irons into every green.  Now, yes, I do miss greens, struggle out of bunkers, and can't putt for my life, but does that mean my distance doesn't allow me to play from 7000, where I am given the opportunity to hit every club in the bag?  Distance is not my problem... in fact its the lack of distance in the short game that gives me fits.

Kevin

[JMEvensky]

Doesn't the possibility exist that fewer tees would be needed at a course built for only scratch players?

If your point is that a fully scratch membership would be easier to design/maintain for,I probably agree--with some qualifications (they bitch just as loudly and often as 18's,probably moreso).

Good luck finding 200-250 of them in the same city--all of whom willing to slap sufficient leather.

[Kalen Braley]

John,

Where's the hate?  I've never seen a high capper complain about those things I listed..but I have seen plenty of single digits or less complain about all those things at least once...


P.S.  We would indeed need less tee boxes if sticks were happy with the current tee boxes.  Remember the ones that all of us hacks play were there 1st as originally designed, not visa versa. 

Kalen,

Please go start your own thread.  This is not about how much smarter bad golfers are.

John,

My original comment was very on point.

Its the top 20% of golfers who have made the most demands on having the perfect "Augusta-like" golf course year round that has led to most of the cost incurring line items.  Every hacker I've played with just enjoys being out there and doesn't need the long tees, perfect fairways, and consistent bunkers and greens to have a good time.

Unlike the majority of good players who are miserable if they are not shooting a great score.

[Dave McCollum]

Guys who take carts.  Cart paths add $1-2M if you hide them behind features. Both sticks and hacks use carts or not.  My experience is that the sticks bitch more about the maintenance than the hacks.  Hacks bitch more about price increases.  In general, neither group is very knowledgeable about design.  However, it is the sticks who are bold enough to think that hitting a golf ball somehow qualifies them to say something really stupid.  By far, the dumbest things I've ever heard come from the sticks.    

[JMEvensky]

Where's the hate?  I've never seen a high capper complain about those things I listed..but I have seen plenty of single digits or less complain about all those things at least once...

If you ever get to Memphis,I'll be happy to disprove your thesis.

Just one anecdote--I recently listened to a high handicap bitch about the bunker consistency.This is a guy who considers it a "sandy" if he just gets the ball out of the bunker.You can't make this shit up.

Absolutely no question that low handicaps complain incessantly--but no more than high handicaps.

[Jason Walker]

Kalen-
I'll assume you're not a member of a club?  Cause high handicaps bitch about all that stuff as much/if not more than low handicaps where I play.  

[Jud_T]

Guys who insist on tipping it out at 7000+ but only scare 80 twice a year.

Jud,

Do you really believe it costs more to build some back tees than it costs to maintain the first 150 yds of every hole for the people who can not get the ball airborn?  18 tees at 900 square feet each is just over 1/3 of an acre.  18 fairways 150 yds long and 30 yds wide is over 5 and 1/2 acres.

The maintenance is not such a big issue, the land is...

[Tom_Doak]

John K:

I've met three superintendents at Pine Valley over the years.  I've never been told the exact maintenance budget there, but every one of them has said that he spends more money on the "native" areas than he did on the turf.  One of them said it was much more!

So, the real answer to your question is that it depends on where you are.  If you're on natural linksland in the UK, it would cost less to build a course for the sticks; but in most of America, if you have to maintain the rough extensively, there probably wouldn't be much difference.

Note:  the sticks will require 20-30 more acres of real estate for their course, which would tip the balance in any major metropolitan area.

[Kalen Braley]

Jason,

That is true.  I play the majority of my golf on public courses, and I rarely if ever hear complaints about those kinds of things.  Perhaps there is a fundamental difference at work when you are just merely paying for a green fee as opposed to being a paying member at a club.

However, once again, the vast vast majority of play, in the states at least, comes at public golf courses, so I still think the majority basis is intact.

I was playing just last weekend with a 4 capper who was pissed because his ball landed on a dead spot near the green that caused his ball to bounce forward way more than expected and he wound up with a bogey.  He was hot under the collar over that for a good two minutes.

[Mike Hendren]

Doesn't the possibility exist that fewer tees would be needed at a course built for only scratch players?

Now you're on to something.  I can't help but think that the Americanization of the teeing ground (5 sets of tees is often an advertising slogan) resulted from the conversion of the game here from match play to stroke play, so everyone had a better chance of making par.  I see where Blue Mound tips out at 6,670 yards - I'd be willing to move back if the "sticks" would be willing to move up.

In such a case, who'd advocate a second tee - the hacks for a forward tee of the sticks for a back tee?  

[John Kavanaugh]

John K:

I've met three superintendents at Pine Valley over the years.  I've never been told the exact maintenance budget there, but every one of them has said that he spends more money on the "native" areas than he did on the turf.  One of them said it was much more!

So, the real answer to your question is that it depends on where you are.  If you're on natural linksland in the UK, it would cost less to build a course for the sticks; but in most of America, if you have to maintain the rough extensively, there probably wouldn't be much difference.

Note:  the sticks will require 20-30 more acres of real estate for their course, which would tip the balance in any major metropolitan area.

Thank you.  The only problem I have with your contention that sticks require 20 - 30 acres more land is that holes are not built end to end or do you buy perfectly symmetrical pieces of property to build a course.  It does seem to me that many classic courses are extended without the purchase of land.