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PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Earlier this year, I relocated to Minneapolis from Chicago and have been floored by the quality of the golf course architecture up here. Being the Chicago homer that I am, I thought I was slightly depressed to be leaving general vicinity of some of my favorite courses (as well as for the only city with a shorter golf season than Chicago  :) ). Yet, each course I’ve visited I’ve been amazed by the quality of the course, and generally how well taken care of, including quite a few major restorations within the past decade. Compared to Chicago, for example, past CGC and Shoreacres…Minneapolis is generally in the same league when comparing the area’s first 5 or 6 best courses, and has a significantly stronger “depth chart” once you hit Conway Farms (on the list below). Chicago is obviously a bigger city, and receives more attention, but aside from the weather, why don’t more people on Golf Club Atlas talk about Minneapolis/St. Paul as a major golf course architectural hub?

Assuming a ~30 mile radius around a major American city, how does Minneapolis stack up compared to Chicago, Boston, New York, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Columbus, Milwaukee, Detroit, etc? Can any cities match the Twin Cities for pure depth of work done by major classical architects?   

Minneapolis/St. Paul
Interlachen
Minikahda
White Bear Yacht Club
Hazeltine – Rees Jones
Minneapolis Golf Club
Golden Valley (Tillinghast)
Spring Hill (Fazio)
Windsong Farm
Woodhill
Somerset (Raynor)
Minnesota Valley / Midland Hills (Raynor)
North Oaks (Thompson)
Oak Ridge
Edina CC
Stoneridge (Public - Weed)
Keller Golf Course - (Public - PGA Championships in 1932 and 1954, the 1949 Western Open, the St. Paul Open from 1930-1968 and the Patty Berg Golf Classic from 1973-1980.)

In addition, according to a 2002 Golf World article, within a 100-mile radius of the Twin Cities, there are approximately 170 courses, 75 percent of them open to the public. There are also more golfers in the state of Minnesota per capita than any other.

Here is a list of courses around Chicago for comparison:

Chicago
Chicago Golf Club
Shoreacres
Medinah No. 3
Butler National
Olympia Fields North
Skokie CC
Olympia Fields South
Conway Farms
Cog Hill #4
North Shore
Beverly
Bob O Link
Old Elm
Knollwood
Kemper Lakes
H.P.S.

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
...why don’t more people on Golf Club Atlas talk about Minneapolis/St. Paul as a major golf course architectural hub?

Because people on Golf Club Atlas, like people everywhere outside the Land of 10,000 Lakes, don't talk about Minneapolis/St. Paul much in any context! (USA Today ran an ad for the 3M Championship that called us "The Land of 1,000 Lakes." And NO ONE who saw it corrected it.)

Obscurity: That's the way we like it. We wouldn't live here, otherwise.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Dan Boerger

  • Karma: +0/-0
As someone who used to live in Minneapolis (and played in a league at Wirth, with our annual outing at Keller), you don't have to convince me about the riches in the area.

To this day, I get out there lots for business and I purposely drive by Minikahda (and drool) on my way to visit a client nearby.

The only downside -- and it is real when comparing that beautiful area to many other parts of the country -- is that it's a shorter golf season than most.
"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
I would argue it has more very good golf than Chicago. I do not think it is underrated for many of us know there is a great deal of very good golf in the metro area before one heads to Deluth. lol

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0


Because people on Golf Club Atlas, like people everywhere outside the Land of 10,000 Lakes, don't talk about Minneapolis/St. Paul much in any context!


If you guys hadn't allowed the Lincoln Del to close,I'd still be singing your praises--good golf courses or not.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Pat:

Because most of my golf travel is in the winter to resort destinations or to links courses, I have not played enough of the top courses in other Northern big cities to have any idea how the Twin Cities courses compare.  It has taken me about 10 years to hit all of the twin cities courses I have wanted to see.

The terrain in the Twin Cities is pretty much ideal but the soil tends to be a bit heavy.  Many ODG's built courses here and some good restoration type work has been done in the last 10-15 years.  None of the clubs are concerned about hosting professional tournaments because Hazeltine pretty much has that market sewn up.  It was built for that purpose.

I am interested Chicago as a reference point because it seems comparable in terms of the terrain and the era in which courses were built.
    

Dan Boerger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Convention Grill still open, so all is in balance IMO ... perfect before a round at Minikadah, or Hazeltine, or Edina CC ...
"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
If you guys hadn't allowed the Lincoln Del to close,I'd still be singing your praises--good golf courses or not.

If the Lincoln Del's prices hadn't been about 100 percent higher than anyone else's, it'd still be doing a land-office business!

"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
If you guys hadn't allowed the Lincoln Del to close,I'd still be singing your praises--good golf courses or not.

If the Lincoln Del's prices hadn't been about 100 percent higher than anyone else's, it'd still be doing a land-office business!



How can you put a price on a perfect banana cream or chocolate ice box pie?

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
How can you put a price on a perfect banana cream or chocolate ice box pie?

Their problem, exactly.

You put it (a) high enough to make a profit, and (b) low enough to stay in business!

Apologies to Pat Craig!

I can't say if MSP is the most underrated golf metropolis, or underrated at all -- but there's surely plenty of Very Good Golf to be had here, particularly if Access is not an issue, or you're good at getting it.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2011, 03:14:35 PM by Dan Kelly »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
The terrain in the Twin Cities is pretty much ideal but the soil tends to be a bit heavy.  Many ODG's built courses here and some good restoration type work has been done in the last 10-15 years.  None of the clubs are concerned about hosting professional tournaments because Hazeltine pretty much has that market sewn up.  It was built for that purpose.

I am interested Chicago as a reference point because it seems comparable in terms of the terrain and the era in which courses were built.
    

Jason:

I actually think the terrain here is, on the whole, more interesting than in Chicago...which with only a few exceptions is as flat as a pancake. The Twin Cities' rolling land really lends itself to more interesting architecture and routings, in my opinion.

Using my lists above I would give the following observations and comparisons of MSP vs. Chicago:

*So far, I haven't seen anything in the same league as Chicago Golf or Shoreacres here in MSP. Both are personal favorites and extremely good golf courses, even on a national level.

*Below CGC and SA the next "Tier" of courses in the area include Medinah No. 3, Butler National, Olympia Fields North, Beverly,
and Skokie CC. Three of these are big, strong golf courses that have/are capable of hosting Majors, MSP's modern answer to these courses would be Hazeltine which has hosted two recent PGA's, a few past Opens, and the Ryder Cup in 2016. I like Hazeltine a lot and think it's in the same league as #3. I think OFCC - North is in the same league as Interlachen, but in my honest opinion I think Interlachen gets the slight nod because it has an awesome, world-class, set of greens. Skokie CC is really good, but Minikahda is very similar in look and playability thanks to Ross/Prichard restorations. While I have not been, from many reports it seems WBYC is in this tier.

*While Chicago wins the first round and (being conservative) takes the 2nd round despite a few good punches from MSP, MSP comes back strong after that. The quality on my list begins to drop quickly after OFCC - South, Flossmoor (which I forgot the first time around), and Conway Farms. I would take Minneapolis Golf Club, Golden Valley, and Oak Ridge any day over many of the well regarded country club courses around Chicago, including Knollwood, North Shore, Exmoor, Evanston, Bob O Link. MSP's depth is really it's strong suit.

*The public golf here in MSP is significantly more affordable than in Chicago. While Keller Golf Course costs $32 on a Saturday morning, and the most expensive publics top out around $90 (StoneRidge / Troy Burne), an average, packed, muni on the North Shore can cost $50+ and The Glen and Cog Hill go for $150+. You have to drive an hour from downtown Chicago to find a decently priced, quality design, that doesn't take 5 hours to play on a Saturday morning.


I'm sure there are more scientific ways to break down city vs. city (course rankings, votes, Ryder Cup style "match play", etc... Please note that I'm not knocking any of the above Chicago courses, just bringing attention to the quality of the less discussed courses here in MSP below the Interlachen's, Minikahda's, and Hazeltine's.
H.P.S.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Thanks Pat.  That comparison looks pretty reasonable.  I think of Cog Hill when I think of Chicago which made me think the terrain might be similar in the two cities. 

Windsong fits in the "muscle" category of courses.  Windsong hosted the Big 10 Campionships and probably could host a pro tournament.   It can be stretched to the 7600 yard area. 

Spring Hill could also possibly fit - it might not be long enough and certainly does not have enough room for facilities to host a professional tournament but its tightness is brutal on guys like us and when firm and fast is more than enough challenge for anyone.   

David Cronheim

  • Karma: +0/-0
I've heard great things about White Bear Yacht Club - has anyone played it?
Check out my golf law blog - Tee, Esq.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
I've heard great things about White Bear Yacht Club - has anyone played it?

David,

Check out post #106 of Jason's recent thread:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,47337.105.html
H.P.S.

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
David,

There have been a number of threads here about WBYC. It's a gem, with very little change from the Watson/Ross original that opened in 1916. Great rolling fairways, some tight holes, and a set of greens with contouring the likes of which I've never seen on a Ross course. There are some deceptive bunkers and the cool/weird feature of teeing off over a state road. The course has many, many fans.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

David Cronheim

  • Karma: +0/-0
Very neat - the tee shot over the road reminds me quite a bit of Mid Ocean. At Mid Ocean you tee off over the street and don't even know it's there until after you hit because of the way the mounding is set up. Can't tell if it's the same at WBYC.
Check out my golf law blog - Tee, Esq.

Tony Weiler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Pat and Dan, I've played both Interlachen and Hazeltine, but none of the others on your list.  Need a MPLS trip I guess.  What would your public list look like?  I really enjoyed The Legends Club in Prior Lake by Gill/Miller, but didn't care for Chaska Town (Art Hills) which always seems to rank fairly high in public rankings. 

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
I figure someone needs to chime in sooner or later on an alternate city.

I'll take a crack at the San Francisco area:


Olympic Club Lake
San Francisco GC
California Club
Stanford Golf Club
Meadow Club
--------------------------
Olympic Club Ocean
Lake Merced
Crystal Springs
Menlo Country Club
Sharon Heights
Half Moon Bay Ocean
Half Moon Bay Old Course
Presidio
Stonebrae
Claremont Country Club
Tilden Park
Metropolitan Links
Monarch Bay


I don't recognize most of those courses on the Minneapolis list, but do any of them stack up to what I would guess/consider is the top 5 on this list?

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
I figure someone needs to chime in sooner or later on an alternate city.

I'll take a crack at the San Francisco area:


Olympic Club Lake
San Francisco GC
California Club
Stanford Golf Club
Meadow Club
--------------------------
Olympic Club Ocean
Lake Merced
Crystal Springs
Menlo Country Club
Sharon Heights
Half Moon Bay Ocean
Half Moon Bay Old Course
Presidio
Stonebrae
Claremont Country Club
Tilden Park
Metropolitan Links
Monarch Bay


I don't recognize most of those courses on the Minneapolis list, but do any of them stack up to what I would guess/consider is the top 5 on this list?

Kalen,

I like Interlachen significantly more than Olympic Club, just as one example.

Ironically, a good friend just played Stanford two days ago for the first time and said he didn't enjoy that much and thought it was hyped up for no reason, and I generally trust his opinion. So I was surprised to see it in your top 5.
H.P.S.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
I figure someone needs to chime in sooner or later on an alternate city.

I'll take a crack at the San Francisco area:


Olympic Club Lake
San Francisco GC
California Club
Stanford Golf Club
Meadow Club
--------------------------
Olympic Club Ocean
Lake Merced
Crystal Springs
Menlo Country Club
Sharon Heights
Half Moon Bay Ocean
Half Moon Bay Old Course
Presidio
Stonebrae
Claremont Country Club
Tilden Park
Metropolitan Links
Monarch Bay


I don't recognize most of those courses on the Minneapolis list, but do any of them stack up to what I would guess/consider is the top 5 on this list?

Kalen,

I like Interlachen significantly more than Olympic Club, just as one example.

Ironically, a good friend just played Stanford two days ago for the first time and said he didn't enjoy that much and thought it was hyped up for no reason, and I generally trust his opinion. So I was surprised to see it in your top 5.

Pat,

I did choose the word "guess" on purpose as I haven't played any of those in the top 5, so it was speculative as to which ones belong there.  I have played a few of the courses in the other part of the list though.

I would be interested in more data points from others who have played the best in the bay area in addition to those in Minnesota.  It could very well be that the ones there are indeed a better set....even if they are only open 5 months of the season as opposed to 12.   ;)

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Boston is pretty solid:

The Country Club
Myopia Hunt Club
Essex County Club
Salem Golf Club
Old Sandwich
Boston Golf Club
Charles River CC
Worcester CC
Oak Hilll CC
Oakley CC
TPC Boston
Brae Burn CC
Winchester CC
Kernwood CC
South Shore CC
Wellesley CC
Woodland GC
Pine Brook CC
Red Tail
George Wright


And that is not even counting Cape Cod.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Hey, Minneapolis/St. Paul isn't going to win if you compare to other Metro areas straight up.  The thread asks if it is the most underrated and I've always contended it has the most diversity as far as designers. 

Don't forget to include Eau Claire and Owatonna on the list of must plays after the initial dozen have been exhausted.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Underrated?  Yes.  Most underrated?  Perhaps, though I would pick Cleveland ahead of Minny for being underrated.

Top ten golf metropolis in the U.S.?  Perhaps, just.  Boston, New York, and Philadelphia are MILES better -- you could split them in half, and either half would take Minneapolis / St. Paul combined.  Chicago is overrated, but probably better than Minny.  Cleveland's probably better, and Columbus, if it counts as a city.  ;)  San Francisco, I think, unless you are going 25-30 deep and don't allow the SF metro area to extend very far out ... it doesn't have a lot of choices close in.  LA is overrated, but again, the top 4-5 would overwhelm the best in Minny.  I'm sure I've forgotten a couple.

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Tom-
Where is Detroit in your list? (I've never played golf there.)

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Carl:

I really haven't played nearly enough of the courses around Detroit to rank it.  It would certainly be in the same league as Minneapolis -- I would take Oakland Hills or Franklin Hills over any of them except White Bear Yacht Club, and I'm one of the few who would put WBYC in that class, because I love how severe it is.  But, I've never seen Grosse Ile or Red Run or the second tier of Detroit courses, so I couldn't really compare it.