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Alex Miller

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Re: Best and worst courses RELATIVE to the property.
« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2009, 02:26:17 AM »
Worst is Trump L.A. hands down.

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best and worst courses RELATIVE to the property.
« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2009, 02:50:09 AM »
What about Poppy Hills? It's not a bad golf course, but then you see the inland holes at Spyglass and Cypress Point and MPCC on basically the same land, and the difference is huge. On such great land, they only came up with a couple of exceptional holes.

I've only played PH once and walked the MPCC-Dunes course. But, as I recall several of the forested MPCC holes (1,2,3,5,6) were nothing exceptional, certainly not a clear step up from those at PH. Spyglass and The Dunes both suprass PH primarily when they leave the woods for the dunes (and the rocky shorline at MPCC). Agreed?

Not really. 3-8 at MPCC Dunes are all pretty cool holes. Spyglass is of high quality all the way through. Meanwhile at Poppy a great number of the holes leave you feeling distinctly unsatisfied, a feeling I didn't seem to get at those other courses.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Best and worst courses RELATIVE to the property.
« Reply #27 on: October 12, 2009, 09:51:56 AM »
Mark B:

By "the sacred nine," do you mean Royal Worlington & Newmarket?  That was the first course that came to mind for me.  If you were out on a drive looking for land to build a course, you'd probably drive right past that one, even with the golf course laying there. 

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best and worst courses RELATIVE to the property.
« Reply #28 on: December 20, 2009, 03:55:59 AM »
Now, for a bad course on a good piece of property. Cross Creek in Temecula, CA was a blown chance. A fanatstic property with a bad design, which incidentally is being heavily reworked right now.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2009, 04:05:18 AM by Michael Dugger »
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best and worst courses RELATIVE to the property.
« Reply #29 on: December 20, 2009, 04:21:01 AM »
11-17
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best and worst courses RELATIVE to the property.
« Reply #30 on: December 20, 2009, 05:14:02 AM »
For the most talked about on a bad property 'Castle Course' ?

Trent Dixon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best and worst courses RELATIVE to the property.
« Reply #31 on: December 20, 2009, 07:58:20 AM »
Peter Thomson would have to have two finalists for the worst course on the best property, Moonah Links Open, and The National Ocean. Amazing properties, completely butchered...

David_Madison

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best and worst courses RELATIVE to the property.
« Reply #32 on: December 20, 2009, 08:30:39 AM »
Wouldn't Pete Dye's work as a whole rank up there with turning terrible land into good golf courses, for example TPC Sawgrass?

How about Dismal River for underachiever? I've never been there, but from what I've heard of it or seen on this site, and given its proximity to Sand Hills and all that was accomplished there...

Carl Rogers

Re: Best and worst courses RELATIVE to the property.
« Reply #33 on: December 20, 2009, 09:25:36 AM »
Riverfront in Suffolk, VA -  very flatish property (some parts of the property adjacent to wetlands and the Nansemond River very attractive), in other areas the are residences too big and too close and yet quite a course for someone who has not had much opportunity to travel ... one heck of a course.

Wade Whitehead

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best and worst courses RELATIVE to the property.
« Reply #34 on: December 20, 2009, 09:42:21 AM »
I've made this point elsewhere but wasn't Shadow Creek a perfect piece of property? Didn't Fazio say something to that effect? There was nothing preventing him from creating whatever he wanted. Sounds like a good spot to me.

I think what Mr. Fazio meant was that Shadow Creek had the perfect budget.

WW

Wade Whitehead

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best and worst courses RELATIVE to the property.
« Reply #35 on: December 20, 2009, 09:43:48 AM »
Considering when and how it was constructed, I'd say the Cascades is a fantastic example of turning a tough piece of property into a wonderful golf course.

WW

Scott Szabo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best and worst courses RELATIVE to the property.
« Reply #36 on: December 20, 2009, 10:02:55 AM »
I haven't been on the property, but I've heard many say that Nicklaus and team totally missed out at Dismal River.  I've even heard that it was a Doak 0, given the property they had to work with.
"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best and worst courses RELATIVE to the property.
« Reply #37 on: December 20, 2009, 03:58:09 PM »
I've made this point elsewhere but wasn't Shadow Creek a perfect piece of property? Didn't Fazio say something to that effect? There was nothing preventing him from creating whatever he wanted. Sounds like a good spot to me.

I think what Mr. Fazio meant was that Shadow Creek had the perfect budget.

WW

How very cynical WW ;D

Wade Whitehead

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best and worst courses RELATIVE to the property.
« Reply #38 on: December 20, 2009, 04:21:48 PM »
I haven't been on the property, but I've heard many say that Nicklaus and team totally missed out at Dismal River.  I've even heard that it was a Doak 0, given the property they had to work with.

I wouldn't want to be the painting hanging next to the Mona Lisa, either.

WW

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best and worst courses RELATIVE to the property.
« Reply #39 on: December 20, 2009, 04:52:29 PM »
I'd include really good courses on very small parcels of land in this discussion as eligible for the "best" designation.  Among courses I've played, I'd nominate Caledonia in Pawleys Island.  Those who've played it would probably nominate Wannamoisett as well.

I'll also submit Yale for consideration, given the feat of engineering it represented in its time.

Upper Cascades, for Flynn's use of the natural landforms, e.g. the 5th fairway.

Wintonbury Hills in CT, because power lines run right down the center of the property but do not come into play at all.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

John Moore II

Re: Best and worst courses RELATIVE to the property.
« Reply #40 on: December 21, 2009, 01:58:02 PM »
Riverfront in Suffolk, VA -  very flatish property (some parts of the property adjacent to wetlands and the Nansemond River very attractive), in other areas the are residences too big and too close and yet quite a course for someone who has not had much opportunity to travel ... one heck of a course.

Well, I think if you notice, the only places the houses really come in close are on 16, and those are afterthoughts, constructed after the course and likely not factored into the construction; note how the cart path changes directions, you can see the seams. However, on the note of Riverfront, I think the wetlands were a hindrance to the construction. While the holes turned out well, just look at some of the huge walks because of those wetlands being there. Especially from 14 green to 15 tee. 15 is a very good hole, but the wetlands that make it good are also a real pain when it comes to walking/routing. I would easily put Riverfront in the Overachiever category relative to original property.

And for worst on good property, that I can think of, it has to be The Pit, for me. That course, for me, is terrible. Just look at the quality work done right up the road with Tobacco Road and Tot Hill Farm. Those were on extreme sites and turned out very well. The Pit was on an extreme site and turned out nothing.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best and worst courses RELATIVE to the property.
« Reply #41 on: December 21, 2009, 04:37:42 PM »
John,

The Pit, the name sort of says it all.

John Moore II

Re: Best and worst courses RELATIVE to the property.
« Reply #42 on: December 21, 2009, 04:41:32 PM »
John,

The Pit, the name sort of says it all.

Well, supposedly it used to be the best thing in Pinehurst next to #2, but its fallen off a lot since then if thats really the case. It was built on an old sand quarry (sand pit) so thats how the name came about. But its pretty bad, in my little opinion.

Kyle Henderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best and worst courses RELATIVE to the property.
« Reply #43 on: December 21, 2009, 04:57:10 PM »
I haven't been on the property, but I've heard many say that Nicklaus and team totally missed out at Dismal River.  I've even heard that it was a Doak 0, given the property they had to work with.

I can see why Dismal River turns people off and the course doesn't live up to the site's potential, but it is no Doak 0.There plenty of enjoyable holes, though perhaps not nearly enough to warrant the time and expense of travelling all the way to Mullen.
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best and worst courses RELATIVE to the property.
« Reply #44 on: December 21, 2009, 05:19:09 PM »
I'd include really good courses on very small parcels of land in this discussion as eligible for the "best" designation....Those who've played it would probably nominate Wannamoisett as well.
For good courses on small (and not particularly great) parcels of land, I would nominate Kingston Heath, Winchester CC, and Charles River CC.
Next!

Carl Rogers

Re: Best and worst courses RELATIVE to the property.
« Reply #45 on: December 21, 2009, 07:22:45 PM »
Riverfront in Suffolk, VA -  very flatish property (some parts of the property adjacent to wetlands and the Nansemond River very attractive), in other areas the are residences too big and too close and yet quite a course for someone who has not had much opportunity to travel ... one heck of a course.

Well, I think if you notice, the only places the houses really come in close are on 16, and those are afterthoughts, constructed after the course and likely not factored into the construction; note how the cart path changes directions, you can see the seams. However, on the note of Riverfront, I think the wetlands were a hindrance to the construction. While the holes turned out well, just look at some of the huge walks because of those wetlands being there. Especially from 14 green to 15 tee. 15 is a very good hole, but the wetlands that make it good are also a real pain when it comes to walking/routing. I would easily put Riverfront in the Overachiever category relative to original property.
John, This web site is a good one if we look at the same course and see the course a little bit differently.
My issue with Riverfront is primarliy the 6th hole tee shot, very narrow between a water hazard and out of bounds and homes.  The bridge across the wetlands that occur twice is some thing I really like.  There are long walks are between 9th green and 10th tee & 12th green and 13th tee. 

Another thread asks for a stretch of 3 hard holes.  If the sequence had asked for a par 4, par 3 and a par 5, then Riverfront's sequnce of 12, 13 & 14 holes would be a good match for any course.

Carl Rogers

Re: Best and worst courses RELATIVE to the property.
« Reply #46 on: December 21, 2009, 07:24:21 PM »
I wonder what kind of property the late Mike Strantz had to start with at Royal New Kent??

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best and worst courses RELATIVE to the property.
« Reply #47 on: December 21, 2009, 08:40:51 PM »
Carl - My guess.... A really really big one! There is 9 miles of cartpath at the place!

Nobody has mentioned Kingsbarns yet for best course on worst property? Wasn't it about the same as the flat farmland that the castle once was?

Best on worst - Yale? its a very extreme piece of property, densely wooded, and considering the times.
                   - Lido... dredged out of the sea, similar to Shadow Creek (something out of nothing)


Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best and worst courses RELATIVE to the property.
« Reply #48 on: December 21, 2009, 09:07:03 PM »
Carl - My guess.... A really really big one! There is 9 miles of cartpath at the place!


Stonehouse has 13 miles of cart path.

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best and worst courses RELATIVE to the property.
« Reply #49 on: December 21, 2009, 11:51:36 PM »
If the course is completely manufactured, then how much does it matter what kind of site it was built on? The Castle Course, or the Rawls Course, or even Bayonne........if the site itself is largely created out of whole cloth, then the resulting course can't really be said to be a product of the site at all, can it?

Of course, would it be correct to say that the greens at WFW were built up above the grade of a relatively flat bit of property? Is that the same kind of deal?

Man, I can talk myself out of anything.
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini