Chambers Bay vs. the courses at Bandon Dunes - discuss

[Jay Flemma]

Guys, I will be heading out to Washington some time late this year.  I hear wonderful things about Chambers Bay.  How does it resemble the work at the Bandon complex?  How is it different?  What's better about it?  What's not?  What's unique about it?  What might you think is cliched? (if anything?)

[Michael Dugger]

The land at BDR is quite different than at CB.  CB was built over a former quarry.

And that's really all you need to know.  A lot of "discovery" took place at BDR, a lot of creation took place at CB.  The CB guys will tell you that they incorporated existing features into their design.  There is some truth in that, but something about digging a half pipe through a pile of gunk that is the 10th at CB doesn't seem quite the same as sand capping the 13th hole at Pacific Dunes, for example.

The routing at CB works okay, they got the part about climaxing near the water correct.  There are some uphill and downhill holes that take advantage of the elevation changes and afford nice views.

But in a few places, like 8 and 9, something feels amiss, and I know I'm not the only person who feels this way.

I've always thought Chambers Bay has more of a sister/brother relationship to courses like Whistling Straits or Arcadia Bluffs, than thenBandon Dunes courses. 

[Andy Troeger]

I think Chambers Bay stands on its own very well. I don't think its that closely related to Whistling Straits--the styles are totally different. The relationship with Arcadia Bluffs might be closer, but I think Chambers is quite a bit better.

Chambers has a very good mix of holes and elevation changes as Michael said. I don't have a problem with the 8th/9th stretch, but they are admittedly a bit different from the rest of the course. The experience is totally different from Bandon in just about every way--its very clear from the drive in that the course is not in a secluded area!

[Mark Saltzman]

I agree with Andy that CB is the best of the three.  A lot of people say that all of these courses feel very manufactured, but I didn't get that sense.  Knowing that CB is largely manufactured makes you look for signs of this and people 'find' manufactured looking areas.  If you went in with an open mind, I don't think you would get that feeling at all.

Re nos. 8 and 9.  In my opinion, 8 is the worst hole on the course (though not terrible) and is rather penal compared to the rest of the course.  I suspect that the boring no. 8 was built so that the current no. 9 could be used.  The only way to get from number 7 green all the way up to the perched no. 9 tee is a long/straight hole.  I do not have the same problem with 9 that so many on here do.  I do not even see it as a poor hole and cannot see why most do(?).  There is a lot of calculation/skill/luck involved in getting the distance right from the dramatically elevated tee with a strong wind, but so what?  It is a hole that can easily produce the oft desired 2-5 range of scores.

[Sean Leary]

I agree with Andy that CB is the best of the three.  A lot of people say that all of these courses feel very manufactured, but I didn't get that sense.  Knowing that CB is largely manufactured makes you look for signs of this and people 'find' manufactured looking areas.  If you went in with an open mind, I don't think you would get that feeling at all.

Re nos. 8 and 9.  In my opinion, 8 is the worst hole on the course (though not terrible) and is rather penal compared to the rest of the course.  I suspect that the boring no. 8 was built so that the current no. 9 could be used.  The only way to get from number 7 green all the way up to the perched no. 9 tee is a long/straight hole.  I do not have the same problem with 9 that so many on here do.  I do not even see it as a poor hole and cannot see why most do(?).  There is a lot of calculation/skill/luck involved in getting the distance right from the dramatically elevated tee with a strong wind, but so what?  It is a hole that can easily produce the oft desired 2-5 range of scores.

I don't love 9 because it doesn't "fit" and I think its silly to have ALL downhill par 3's when you didn't have to. On its own it is a fine hole.

Some of us would like to have seen 8 go down where the driving range is and then have 9 green where it is, but from a different angle.

I agree with Mark on the manufactured comment. If you are looking for it you will find it.

[PCCraig]

I think Chambers Bay stands on its own very well. I don't think its that closely related to Whistling Straits--the styles are totally different. The relationship with Arcadia Bluffs might be closer, but I think Chambers is quite a bit better.

Chambers has a very good mix of holes and elevation changes as Michael said. I don't have a problem with the 8th/9th stretch, but they are admittedly a bit different from the rest of the course. The experience is totally different from Bandon in just about every way--its very clear from the drive in that the course is not in a secluded area!

Well said Andy, I agree.

I really liked Chambers Bay when I played it back in March. Firm, fast, and fun with an awesome collection of short par-4's and a few really good "half par" holes. True links or not...it's a really good design. Plus, at ~$100 in March with ~$30 replay?? It's a steal.

I don't think it matters how Chambers Bay stacks up with the courses at Bandon Dunes, personally. The two projects may both be on the west coast, but are seemingly two vastly different projects.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jay,

I like all of them and have told people that in many ways, I do like CB better than much of what is at Bandon.

That said, and its hard to put into words exactly, I think you will find the CB design with bunker placements and what not to be designed for the US Open it will hold and thus just a bit more of a "standard course on a different site".  The 4 courses at Bandon appear more natural, and certainly among the four of them, have a lot more non standard features.  At the very least, each course is a pretty good example of the various gca's philosphies, and you can tell the difference between the CC, TD and RTJ philosophies.

While I don't know you that well, I know your preferences a bit, and suspect you might be one of the people who prefer BD over CB.  Of course, with four completely different courses, you sure have 4X chance of finding something you like better.

[Kalen Braley]

The other thing about Chambers Bay is..

..you never forget that you are in a neighborhood in a major suburbia.  While the course is quite good it doesn't have that natural/wild feel to it that you get with the remoteness of Bandon.  And the views had on every hole are nothing short of fantastic.

If the course itself were transported to the Bandon resort, I suspect it would be the #1 course there and rated just as high as any of the others....

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I do not see anything but west coast and fescue in common. Chambers Bay is a great course in its own right. But it is not from the same bloodline the bandon courses are. Mike kaisers fingerprints are missing. The key parties there are political. I also think Seattle/Tacoma and the State of Washington is fortunate as is Oregon to have both places. 

[paul cowley]

Todos bien...all good IMO.

I like Fords over Chevys...tend to of late favor redheads over blondes.

[Dan Herrmann]

I do like the trains passing by at CB

To your question, though - CB and BD's courses just seem a lot different to me.  Bandon is more "natural", while CB feels a but manufactured (which it is).   I only walked the trail around and through CB and found the course to be very, very good in terms of shot values, greens/green surrounds/and use of elevation.

I'd rather go to Bandon, but CB is one helluva course seeing it's in the middle of the Sea-Tac metro area.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Kalen,

When I played, I quickly learned to sashay down the fairways sideways, backwards, or whatever to keep my view towards the sound.  And the trains!

Dan, you can go to Utube and see a video of a derailment right there, which probably some golfer used to say "Do over, the noise really affected my shot!"

[Brad Isaacs]

I played CB in June of 10 and really wondered if they could get it in shape  for an Open in a bad weather year? The fescue was very fescue on the greens. The redesign of a couple of greens is evidence of this.

Definitely a challenge of a site for a USOpen in June.  IMHO a PGA would have been much safer choice.

[Jerry Kluger]

Yes, you might call CB manufactured but it feels very natural when you play it.  I think the US AM was very telling with respect to how it will play as an Open venue.  The best players advanced and as they did so they played the course better.  I understand that the setup was not as severe later in the event than in the qualifying but you could see the players using the mounds and slopes to carom balls toward the pins which means that knowledge plus imagination is rewarded.  Much of this is the same for the Bandon courses and I know I might get some heat for this, but I don't know that the Bandon courses are tough enough for an Open.  That doesn't mean that any think any less of them but just as NGLA probably wouldn't be a great Open venue while Shinnecock certainly is, so too Bandon versus CB.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,

When I played, I quickly learned to sashay down the fairways sideways, backwards, or whatever to keep my view towards the sound.  And the trains!

Dan, you can go to Utube and see a video of a derailment right there, which probably some golfer used to say "Do over, the noise really affected my shot!"

Jeff,

It wasn't intended to be a knock on the course that one never forgets where they are.  For me its just purely a preference that I enjoy being in the middle of nowhere and playing a course with dead silence or at the very least only the noises of nature.  The best example of this to me personally was playing at Ballyneal...it was almost like being transported to a different planet because it was so remote.

[Ryan Kelly]

I played Chambers in May and I'm going back to Bandon in 9 days.  Both are great places but the biggest problem at Chambers is the pace of play.  It took almost 6 hours to play an afternoon round and that would never happen at Bandon.  My buddy and I both took caddies and they told us that they can't move players along like they do at Bandon.

[Carl Nichols]

I played Chambers in May and I'm going back to Bandon in 9 days.  Both are great places but the biggest problem at Chambers is the pace of play.  It took almost 6 hours to play an afternoon round and that would never happen at Bandon.  My buddy and I both took caddies and they told us that they can't move players along like they do at Bandon.

The pace of play problem doesn't surprise me.  Notwithstanding some opinions I've seen on here, it's a pretty tough walk, and IMHO a much more difficult walk than any of the three courses I've played at Bandon (including Trails), even if you keep it in the short grass all day -- and it's a really, really hard walk if you hit it in the wrong fairway bunkers.  I also bet that Chambers draws more beginners, or close to beginners, who are particularly likely to end up in those tough spots.

[Anthony Gray]

  Its all about the atmosphere. Bandon is a resort almost like you are on a different planet. CB is great golf but the experience doesn't compare.

  Anthony

[PCCraig]

I played Chambers in May and I'm going back to Bandon in 9 days.  Both are great places but the biggest problem at Chambers is the pace of play.  It took almost 6 hours to play an afternoon round and that would never happen at Bandon.  My buddy and I both took caddies and they told us that they can't move players along like they do at Bandon.

The pace of play problem doesn't surprise me.  Notwithstanding some opinions I've seen on here, it's a pretty tough walk, and IMHO a much more difficult walk than any of the three courses I've played at Bandon (including Trails), even if you keep it in the short grass all day -- and it's a really, really hard walk if hit it in the wrong fairway bunkers.  I also bet that Chambers draws more beginners, or close to beginners, who are particularly likely to end up in those tough spots.

When we played in late March we played in about 4 hours (maybe a little under) and only waited on a few shots. Of course it's probably a different story when the weather is better mid-summer. When I walked off the 18th hole I could of easily made it back to the empty 1st tee for another round...

Compared to this week's US Am site I thought Chambers was a pretty easy walk. From memory the only tough walks are on the holes close to the property's outside rim.

[Wayne Freeman]

 Jay-  a lot of good points are being made here.  I played 36 holes on a glorious day in June with a tour caddie and had a
  wonderful day.  Pace of play was fine, but I'm sure they have issues at times.  I think your first time there you should
  take a good caddie.  It is definitely worth it.

         Otherwise,  I think you should just go and enjoy.  The course is well deserving of a top 100 spot in the U.S. rankings and
is far and away the best track in Wash.  It flows beautifully and has several heroic holes.  I thought the par 3's were terrific, and felt only the 9th hole was weak.  And the views!!!  Awesome.

[Brad Isaacs]

Eighth and ninth holes are week. Uphill par fives are dogleg rights and very similar. I did lik 18 and like the ideaof it playing as a 5 for the open not a four. Routing is ok but not to the standards of courses at Bandon. The clubs I used on par 3's are 7, 6, 56 w, 7. Not exactly a wide range of clubs for par 3's and I admit to not playing from tips.

The negatives aside, it belongs in lower half half of top 100 modern for Golfweek but not in Golf or Golf Digest top 100 in US.

Pace of play was 5 hours for my foursome, but not all that bothersome.   

Bandon is not a place for an open, is Chambers' Bay?

[Steve Lang]

  We played CB in may2010 on our own and found it wasn't very reactive, nothing like it appeared in the US AM, but I'm thinkn the pros will dismantle it if they want to keep walking for the money at the US Open.  I suspect there will be some surprizing players missing the cut there.

We played BDR (x BD) also in May 2010 and i couldn't believe the folks we played with had such little comprehension of the ground game plays.. that really work!  I guess its the retail golfer testosterone factor so evident there..

I have no real need to go back to CB, BDR is another thing.. for my interests.

[Dan Herrmann]

One note - I found the staff at CB to be great when I visited.  We talked architecture in the pro shop for about an hour.

Kemper does it right.   (The shuttle buses even look the same as Bandon)

[Sven Nilsen]

If the course itself were transported to the Bandon resort, I suspect it would be the #1 course there and rated just as high as any of the others....

Can't believe this statement hasn't generated more comments.  Chambers is a great course, but the architectural interest is not on par with the four courses at Bandon.

Its really an apples and oranges debate, as the sites for Bandon and Chambers are vastly different.  Bandon is set on the coast, and the wind was a huge factor in the design of the courses.  Chambers, while set on the water, does not have the same exposure to the elements.  Moving Chambers Bay in its current form to Bandon would not work, its not designed to be played in the winds you get on the Oregon coast.

 

[Kalen Braley]

If the course itself were transported to the Bandon resort, I suspect it would be the #1 course there and rated just as high as any of the others....

Can't believe this statement hasn't generated more comments.  Chambers is a great course, but the architectural interest is not on par with the four courses at Bandon.

Its really an apples and oranges debate, as the sites for Bandon and Chambers are vastly different.  Bandon is set on the coast, and the wind was a huge factor in the design of the courses.  Chambers, while set on the water, does not have the same exposure to the elements.  Moving Chambers Bay in its current form to Bandon would not work, its not designed to be played in the winds you get on the Oregon coast.

 

Sven,

I'd disagree with you on the 1st point and so would several others who I've spoken to in person and off-line.  While I've only played Pacific Dunes at the resort, its widely regarded as the best one there, and Chambers Bay IMO can totally stand up to it.

While I understand they are at very different sites, what is it about Chambers that couldn't stand up to 3 and 4 club winds?  #12 is the only hole I can think of that would be a little dicey with its narrowness.  All the rest of the holes have plenty of room to accommodate very windy conditions. 

On the contrary I've read more than a few complaints/observations about a few holes at the resort that play near impossible in certain type of wind conditions due to narrowness