[Kalen Braley]

Count me in the group who also generally loved what I saw out there.

The only thing that seemed somewhat off-putting was the massively long slog of par 4s, (15 being the exception, more on that later).  It seemed almost every par was 450+?  Was that because all of the landing areas for these guys featured a downslope/speed slot so they put the tees way back to compensate?

P.S.  I really loved how a short little 253 yard par 4 completely confounded these guys.  The hole was won with a par and only then because the guy hit a terrific texas wedge from off the green out of a little low area.  Either way, it was odd how both of these guys looked like they had no freaking clue on what to do on that hole.  Cantalay hits 8 iron off the tee and still goes in a bunker...wtf?

[Brock Peyer]

I enjoyed what little I got to see this weekend.  The 675 yd 18th seemed like a beast.

[Brad Swanson]

No Kalen, those long par 4s largely brought the fairway bunkering into play.  There were some speed slots, but I can't tell you how many 3 iron/hybrid second shots these guys hit into the par 4s.  Count me as a fan of that.  I thought that the treehouse (a.k.a. Beard-Pullers Anonymous) generally lamented the lack of long approaches into par 4s with the modern game.  Its always been a tough group to please I guess.  

I drank the "prevailing GCA wisdom" Kool-Aid and have ignored the course until today's matches, and I regret doing so.  It is a man-sized course (kinda like Bethpage is/was?) that many people will ding due to its difficulty.  There's nothing quaint about it.  The criticisms levied because of the marketing drivel about minimalism are graduate level beard pulling junk.  Who cares how the course was made, as long as the final product is great?  The "minimalism" inflation that is the in thing is overhyped.  Heck, maybe the next "minimalist course" will only move dirt with tweezers, until the next one comes along and uses laster dissecting microscopes to move each individual grain of sand.  

I'll get off my soapbox before my Unibomber manifesto-esque essay on how this group simultaneously raised and ruined my appreciation of the game gathers any steam.

Brad

[Ben Sims]

Who cares how the course was made, as long as the final product is great?  The "minimalism" inflation that is the in thing is overhyped.  Heck, maybe the next "minimalist course" will only move dirt with tweezers, until the next one comes along and uses laster dissecting microscopes to move each individual grain of sand.  

Brad,

I think clients care.  I think the consumers paying greens fees care.  Indirectly at least.  I can identify with your angst over the "in" thing.  But in this case, the tenets of golf architecture that the most successful minimalists have brought into the mainstream--again--aren't just product differentiation and marketing drivel.  I think the proof is in the pudding.

But if you're game, I'd love to see your manifesto. 

[Brad Swanson]

Ben,
   If someone magically recreated Ballyneal molecule for molecule in Vegas, it wouldn't provide you the same experience?  I (by and large) appreciate the products of the modern minimal design as much as anyone else here, but its not because of the PROCESS, its because of the PRODUCT.

Brad

[Ben Sims]

...but its not because of the PROCESS, its because of the PRODUCT.

Brad

Brad,

Isn't that what got us into this whole mess of over leveraged golf courses and third owners being the only profitable ones?

The process matters.  It has to.  Your argument holds water in a vacuum.  But I don't see anyone recreating Sand Hills in Phoenix.  That's because it's stupid to try and do so.  Minimalism works on flat sites too.  Check out Talking Stick North or The Rawls Course.  It's not about how much dirt you move.  That's the biggest misconception about minimalism. 

The best practitioners are the ones that wouldn't put Ballyneal in Vegas. 

[RJ_Daley]

I'm not sure I am getting the gist of your comments, Brad.  I agree that minimalism for minimalism's sake isn't the be all and end all path to creating a great golf course, necessarily.  In fact, unless I mis-remember, the early commentary on EH was a debate of how great it was due to the relatively strict adherence to minimalism, or where so many blind drumlins were not "melted down" (as the Doak team refers to their work at Ballyneal) and that it was unplayable.  I remember Jason Blaseburg and his wife had enjoyed a round or two soon after it opened, his high praise, and the argument was that if you played the proper up tees, it wasn't so overwhelming, not even for his wife.  Others, particularly a fellow whose opinion I value very much and an excellent player panned it.  There was some supported criticism I heard 3rd hand from certain conversations and activity of someone 'very close' to the construction operation that was quite revealing in my view.  

The general criticism by others that I had heard prior to going there myself was unless you played with a caddie and forecaddie aid, you may loose a couple sleeves or more of balls in the native.  The first several months, the native was in play from mowing lines that were way too narrow.  By the time I played it with Mike Hendren, they had bitten the bullet and had literally green chopped about 6-8 yards a side more of the native down to a rough unsightly cut of weedy woody stems of brush and broadleaf weeds that was the native.  But, it was still a slog, playing with no forecaddies.  WE happened to play it after a huge rain as well, and it was pudding soft and not ideal to say the least.

We had a young man, Brendan Dolan who was an area turf student who worked on the construction who was very proud and complimentary to the course.  We had quite a build up of photos and comments from pre-construction to post construction on the exciting original 10th, par 5 with a wild wide yet meandering and blind to blind potential corridors of FW, to an 80 yard green with biarritz trough.  It was one of those things that was loved by some, and I for one didn't care for it and thought it was just too over the top. Not to mention the abyss that was in the foregreen and the abrupt OOB right behind the green.

What turned out to be many of the early criticisms was largely based on the potential that it was unrealistic design for holding a major tournament because they didn't address the extreme quirk that wasn't mitigated in favor of sound tournament conventional expectations of playing shot values and characteristics, for minimalism's sake.  So, if the notion of minimalism was marketing drivel, it was bent towards the unacceptable if they were really going to hold a big toon-a-mint.  Obviously, the USGA eventually saw it that way and instituted the remodel, and the original ideas were a commercial-financial failure.  A real sad story for the gentleman that put his heart and soul into it.

So, to sum up my own thoughts on how the design has evolved, I'm glad they kept working and apparently will continue to tweak it to hold the big one.  But, they have to survive for another 6 years and will have to also have a course that people want to play and pay the freight to do so and survive a long time waiting to take the national stage again.  Now that they have softened many of those 'too minimalist' features, it has a chance, I think.  The first versions were going to be a hit and run, with not that many returns, if you ask me.  The average day trip WI golfer, doesn't want to play with caddie, forecaddie and for a lot of $$$ and loose a dozen balls to boot.  Maybe they have addressed many of those issues now.  

[Brad Swanson]

The Rawls Course is "minimalist design"?  You are joking, right?

[Ben Sims]

The Rawls Course is "minimalist design"?  You are joking, right?

So your definition of minimalism only deals with the quantities of dirt moved? Not the product?

[Jim Colton]

 still skeptical of EHills (paging Mr. 155-holer )

Called out! I wouldn't say that I'm skeptical of Erin Hills. I've played it early on and again last year and thought all of the many changes were for the better. I'm sure the course will make for a successful championship venue for the USGA. I've followed the evolution of the course very early on since the "one of the greatest sites for golf I've ever seen" or whatever Whitten said, plus all of the hype from Mr D'Amato ("top 20 in the U.S.") in the Milwaukee paper. A potential Shinnecock 2.0 just 2.0 hours from my house? That'll get your attention. Plus, I had a little extra vested interest having actually tried to route a course there from the Armchair Contest.

I do think EH's winding path to success has been an interesting one. I'd love to read a Harvard-like case study on all of the twists and turns that got them to where they are today. It's a shame that Mr. Lang had to go broke over it. I can't help but think of some of the initial decisions -- like the strict minimalist thing, Whitten's pet holes that were eventually scrapped, 19 holes, tree removal, carts versus walking only -- and their impact on what's there today.  Sure, they've made improvements and it sounds like they will continue to under the guidance of the USGA, but they are constrained by what they started with at least to some extent. I can't help but wonder if the course might be even better if they hypothetically started from scratch without the constraints from version 1.

ps. glad to see B-Swanny back on the board

[John Kirk]

Can I get a read on the walking difficulty?  "The Walking Golfer" rates it an easy walk, with a note "several long green to tee walks."  Is that fair?  Can a foursome really get around in 4 - 4.5 hours?

[RJ_Daley]

Gary Koch said it was an 8 mile walk from 1 tee to 18 green.  I'm not so sure it is 'that' long.  But, easy walk was not accurate in version 1.  We walked it with push carts after a heavy rain, and it was a real slog.  My friend walked it with caddie a couple of weeks ago, and said it was long. 

I'm having a hard time imagining the average golfer 12-15 handi, even from up tees can play this course in less than 4.5hours. 

[Brent Carlson]

Can I get a read on the walking difficulty?  "The Walking Golfer" rates it an easy walk, with a note "several long green to tee walks."  Is that fair?  Can a foursome really get around in 4 - 4.5 hours?

John,

While the green to tee walks are reasonable, the scale of the course is simply large.  Think of Chambers Bay with less elevation change.  4.5 would be moving for your average foursome.  GCA golfers could play in 4 with nobody in front.

[Phil McDade]

John:

It's a pretty demanding walk, and one of the quandries is that it's something like 8 miles (at least that's what the NBC guys said) from #1 tee to #18 green from the back tees, yet the walks from greens to "up" tees is even longer in some cases. A lot of up and down, and a lot of longish walks between greens and tees.

Examples:

50-yard walkback from 1 green to 2 back tee (which is still only @ 350 yds; it's obviously a shorter walk to the up tees, but that's a hole that alot of folks would want to play from the back tee).

Short walk from 2 green to 3 tee, but it's straight uphill, roughly two stories.

Long, strange, not-intuitive walk from 4 green to 5 tee, and about a three-story climb if playing the back tee on 5. Be careful, or you might end up playing 17 instead of 5 after 4.

Another longish walk between 7 green and 8 tee, around 18 teeing grounds.

Decent walk between 9 green and 10 tee.

Very long walk from 10 green to tips at 11, less so if playing the 410 yds tees.

Short but uphill climb from 12 green to 13 tee.

Very short walk from 13 green to the very back tee at 14, but a bit of a hike if playing 14 at, say, 500 yds.

Another abrupt climb to 15 tee, although you've already made half the journey up the hill if you putted out on 14.

Another longish walk from 16 green to anything but the back tee at 17.

18 green is at least 75 yds from the clubhouse.

EHills is a course with a lot of up and down journeying in between holes (lots of elevated tees), and amongst the holes themselves -- 7, 8, 10, 12 (esp.), and 15 all have some pretty severe terrain that they cover. And that's just the severe stuff; there is little that is flat there.

But don't let any of that dissuade you from playing it. In its current conditions, it's a wonderful course.

[John Kirk]

Thanks, Phil.

Eight miles, with lots of ups and downs does not equal "easy to walk".  Maybe for thin, strong 35 year olds.  It looked nice on TV, but very severe, a championship course for the modern game.

[Brad Swanson]

John,
  It is not an easy walk in my opinion.  As Phil outlines, there are quite a few long tee to green walks.  The walkability would be my biggest knock against it.  Kudos to the caddies that schlepped it this week,

Brad

[Jim Colton]

I'm impressed that those guys could walk 36 a day out there. I'm not sure I could do it.

[Joe Bausch]

I'm impressed that those guys could walk 36 a day out there. I'm not sure I could do it.

Funny post of the week!

[Joe Bausch]

Can I get a read on the walking difficulty?  "The Walking Golfer" rates it an easy walk, with a note "several long green to tee walks."  Is that fair?  Can a foursome really get around in 4 - 4.5 hours?

John,

While the green to tee walks are reasonable, the scale of the course is simply large.  Think of Chambers Bay with less elevation change.  4.5 would be moving for your average foursome.  GCA golfers could play in 4 with nobody in front.

Went back and checked the time-stamps on my pics from late May:  my GCA threesome played in 4h 5m.  It would have likely been under 4h if we did not catch a 4some on the front nine.... closer to 5h probably if they did not let us through!

[PCCraig]

I thought the US Am was quite a success this week at Erin Hills. The course was interesting to watch on TV and it produced some really good matches.

I really enjoyed watching the final match yesterday. Cantlay flat out blew it on 15 and 16. How the heck do you hit an 8 iron off the tee into that bunker with a ton of room all around it after teeing off first? Plus, his first putt on 16 was way off.

[Jud_T]

I was out there yesterday.  I was pretty impressed with the conditioning they were able to achieve aided by mother nature.  The fairways were very tight and crusty.  And I agree with Terry that from the USGA's perpective, the place is a homerun in terms of patron viewing, plant and equipment.  Although a bit more conventional now as Phil states, many of the changes are a positive, although I still prefer the old second green (It was reminiscent of Bandon Trails #14 in it's prior incarnation).  Removing the tree on #1 has got to be one of the better tree removal programs in recent memory.  The "Dell" hole is no loss IMO; the "new" #9 was always a better hole.  It'll be interesting to see what kind of turnout they get for the Open.  The owner may be a rich hedge fund guy, but I also really wonder how many people will make the drive to pay $200 + caddy for a tough walk and a tough test on a "links-like" championship course.  I guess once it vaults up the rankings the lemmings will come.    Speaking for the average consumer, I'll take 4 rounds at Lawsonia (or 10 rounds at Spring Valley) every time before ponying up to play Erin Hills or Whistling Straights again.  Of course if I were 20 years younger, a bit cockier and had a prayer at scaring 80 out there I might give up shopping at the Apple store for a few months to test my mettle...

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Loved the event. The course is a series of highs and lows with a routing I still do not get. 18 is just an incredibly bad hole. 12 is an incredibly great hole.

[PCCraig]

I was out there yesterday.  I was pretty impressed with the conditioning they were able to achieve aided by mother nature.  The fairways were very tight and crusty.  And I agree with Terry that from the USGA's perpective, the place is a homerun in terms of patron viewing, plant and equipment.  Although a bit more conventional now as Phil states, many of the changes are a positive, although I still prefer the old second green (It was reminiscent of Bandon Trails #14 in it's prior incarnation).  Removing the tree on #1 has got to be one of the better tree removal programs in recent memory.  The "Dell" hole is no loss IMO; the "new" #9 was always a better hole.  It'll be interesting to see what kind of turnout they get for the Open.  The owner may be a rich hedge fund guy, but I also really wonder how many people will make the drive to pay $200 + caddy for a tough walk and a tough test on a "links-like" championship course.  I guess once it vaults up the rankings the lemmings will come.    Speaking for the average consumer, I'll take 4 rounds at Lawsonia (or 10 rounds at Spring Valley) every time before ponying up to play Erin Hills or Whistling Straights again.  Of course if I were 20 years younger, a bit cockier and had a prayer at scaring 80 out there I might give up shopping at the Apple store for a few months to test my mettle...

Jud,

Considering I'm now even further away from Lawsonia, it's awfully tough to turn down a round at Lawsonia if I'm within an hour of it...regardless of price! I'm still a little bummed that the USGA didn't pick the (closer to EH than Blue Mound) Lawsonia as the co-host for stroke play. That would of been fun to watch...however unlikely it would of been.

[David Cronheim]

I'm impressed that those guys could walk 36 a day out there. I'm not sure I could do it.

It is a difficult walk for sure. I don't think most people could do it in under 5 hours. I had a caddy and was an in shape 25 years old when I played it last summer and I don't think I'd have enjoyed 36 holes too much either, so don't feel bad.

[Carl Nichols]

I thought the US Am was quite a success this week at Erin Hills. The course was interesting to watch on TV and it produced some really good matches.

I really enjoyed watching the final match yesterday. Cantlay flat out blew it on 15 and 16. How the heck do you hit an 8 iron off the tee into that bunker with a ton of room all around it after teeing off first? Plus, his first putt on 16 was way off.

I realize the Ams aren't pros (yet), and they're young, but I thought it was pretty notable how little they talked about how Cantlay disintegrated -- he bogeyed 3 out of the last 4 holes to lose the US Am!

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()