[Jim Colton]

I wasn't around these parts much last weekend, so I apologize if this was discussed in the PGA/AAC threads. What do we make of this trend of lopping off 100-125 yards off of an existing medium-to-long par 4 and making it a risk-reward short par 4? Did it have the desired effect during the tournament? I seem to recall them saying at one point that there was one bogey on the hole they moved up on Saturday. That doesn't seem to fit the mold of an ideal short par 4 - one that forces a key strategic decision on the tee and brings a wide range of scores into play.

If the attempts at AAC failed, where would moving up 100-125 yards succeed? Can you think of some great long par 4's in the world that would work as well as a shortie?

[Tom_Doak]

Jim:

It's any long par-4 with a green complex designed more like a par-5.

Think:

the Road hole at St. Andrews
the 16th at Deal
the 13th at Crystal Downs
the 13th at Prestwick
the 6th at Ballyneal

[Bill_McBride]

Jim:

It's any long par-4 with a green complex designed more like a par-5.

Think:

the Road hole at St. Andrews
the 16th at Deal
the 13th at Crystal Downs
the 13th at Prestwick
the 6th at Ballyneal

Foxy?

[Tom_Doak]

Absolutely, Foxy.

[JC Jones]

Solid call on #13 at Crystal Downs.

I would also include:

#3 at Kingsley Club
#13 at Pacific Dunes
#7 at Old Town Club
#18 at Harbour Town

Among others.

[Tim Bert]

Kingsley has no fewer than 8 par 4s that can be configured as short par 4s (335 yards or less in this case) from tees that exist today.  Wouldn't want to play all 8 that way in any given round, but I love all of these holes from the red tee, in many cases as much or more than the blue tee.  These wouldn't all be a challenge for a low handicapper, but for someone in the 8-15 mid handicapper range they shouldn't be missed if you have multiple rounds to play.

#3, #4, #6, #8, #10, #12, #13, #18

#15 is actually the one really long par 4 on the course that I think would also play great as a short par 4.  I suspect it would give people fits from the 350 range though they'd find it more acceptable because of the green complex as it relates to distance.  Don't get me worn, I love it as the beast that it is today, but I think it would work either way.  Unlike the ones I listed above, #15 doesn't have an existing tee that would allow it to play as a short par 4 so you'd have to tee it up from the fairway to find out.

[Mike_Clayton]

The 10th on the East Course at Royal Melbourne is still called a par five but it is really a long par four now.
From a tee about 300-320 yards from the green it is a brilliant short far four with options everywhere.
For the members who drive about 230 yards it is a brilliant hole but for Geoff Ogilvy its a drive and an 8 iron.

[Tom_Doak]

Kingsley has no fewer than 8 par 4s that can be configured as short par 4s (335 yards or less in this case) from tees that exist today.  Wouldn't want to play all 8 that way in any given round, but I love all of these holes from the red tee, in many cases as much or more than the blue tee.  These wouldn't all be a challenge for a low handicapper, but for someone in the 8-15 mid handicapper range they shouldn't be missed if you have multiple rounds to play.

#3, #4, #6, #8, #10, #12, #13, #18

#15 is actually the one really long par 4 on the course that I think would also play great as a short par 4.  I suspect it would give people fits from the 350 range though they'd find it more acceptable because of the green complex as it relates to distance.  Don't get me worn, I love it as the beast that it is today, but I think it would work either way.  Unlike the ones I listed above, #15 doesn't have an existing tee that would allow it to play as a short par 4 so you'd have to tee it up from the fairway to find out.

Tim:

I don't agree with you on #15 at Kingsley.  I think that's a much better hole at its present length, and particularly with the angle of the tee shot and the cant of the fairway and the trees encroaching from the right.  If you played it up 100 yards, either the trees would encroach too much, or if you moved the tee over a bit to the right, the drive would be too easy.  I played it yesterday with three guys who are all much better golfers than me, and the hole kicked our butts.

I think JC made the best call for Kingsley, #3 would be an excellent hole with the tee further up, but maybe not any better than where it is.

[John Foley]

How about #2 at Sand Hills  & #5 @ Pinehurst #2?

[Tim Bert]

Kingsley has no fewer than 8 par 4s that can be configured as short par 4s (335 yards or less in this case) from tees that exist today.  Wouldn't want to play all 8 that way in any given round, but I love all of these holes from the red tee, in many cases as much or more than the blue tee.  These wouldn't all be a challenge for a low handicapper, but for someone in the 8-15 mid handicapper range they shouldn't be missed if you have multiple rounds to play.

#3, #4, #6, #8, #10, #12, #13, #18

#15 is actually the one really long par 4 on the course that I think would also play great as a short par 4.  I suspect it would give people fits from the 350 range though they'd find it more acceptable because of the green complex as it relates to distance.  Don't get me worn, I love it as the beast that it is today, but I think it would work either way.  Unlike the ones I listed above, #15 doesn't have an existing tee that would allow it to play as a short par 4 so you'd have to tee it up from the fairway to find out.

Tim:

I don't agree with you on #15 at Kingsley.  I think that's a much better hole at its present length, and particularly with the angle of the tee shot and the cant of the fairway and the trees encroaching from the right.  If you played it up 100 yards, either the trees would encroach too much, or if you moved the tee over a bit to the right, the drive would be too easy.  I played it yesterday with three guys who are all much better golfers than me, and the hole kicked our butts.

I think JC made the best call for Kingsley, #3 would be an excellent hole with the tee further up, but maybe not any better than where it is.

Tom - I agree with you that it is better as it is today.  I wasn't trying to make the case that I thought it would be better as a short par 4, only that it would work, as the thread subject indicated.  You make a good point about the trees encroaching on the drive if the hole was shorter.  I was thinking more about the green complex.

As for #3, it is fun from the red tees, but the thing I love most about #3, as much as I like the green, is the fairway shape and movement in the landing area (for me, at least) from the blue tees.  So, I like it as a short par 4 but still think it works better at the length it is today.

Re: playing #15 with good players, we've got some pretty good one headed up there in a few weeks so I'm interested to see how they play it and to get their reaction.  I'm pretty sure I've only seen that green in regulation hit once or twice, and one was by a friend that had wedge in his hand after he absolutely slaughtered one off the tee.  That hole kicks everyone's butt but what I like about it is that it is usually just a stern spanking.  I haven't seen many triple bogey or worse disasters there.  Mostly bogeys or doubles.  So, it is hard for the good golfer but not a round wrecker for the weaker player.

[Ben Sims]

#3 Oakmont
#11 Old Macdonald
#5 Wolf Point
#15 Sleepy Hollow

[Tom_Doak]

Ben:

What about the third hole at Oakmont would make it a great short par 4?  The Church Pews would be out of play, and most people would not be able to get up the hill to the green.

[Greg Tallman]

JC,

How in the hell would 18 at HT make a great short 4? For the life of me I cannot see it.

[Ben Sims]

Ben:

What about the third hole at Oakmont would make it a great short par 4?  The Church Pews would be out of play, and most people would not be able to get up the hill to the green.

Tom,

Out of play for who?  I think the hole would be pretty cool if it tempted the pros and bombers to try and get up that hill and it left the pews in play for the 200yd off the tee crowd.  Maybe shift the tee over to the left 15 yds and move it up 60 or so?  Green tees would go from 420-ish to 350-ish.  Blue would go from 380-390 to 320-330.  I like holes that are almost drivable that leave awkward uphill pitches.  

The green slopes away as well, which makes that bid to either drive it or make an awkward pitch to it a bit tougher. 

[JC Jones]

JC,

How in the hell would 18 at HT make a great short 4? For the life of me I cannot see it.

Water short, left and long for the risk takers while still having open room off to the right.  For those who didn't want to go for the green the fairway is only a few yards wide with water left and OB right, requiring an accurate 200 yard shot off the tee.

[Jim Colton]

Tom,

We've played the 6th hole at BN from the leftmost tee box on 5. I think it's 290 yards to the 6th green from there. It's kind of an extreme angle though - all or nothing for the agreesive play but probably not enough width for the safe shot, especially with little idea For distance to go through the fairway.

[Greg Tallman]

JC,

How in the hell would 18 at HT make a great short 4? For the life of me I cannot see it.

Water short, left and long for the risk takers while still having open room off to the right.  For those who didn't want to go for the green the fairway is only a few yards wide with water left and OB right, requiring an accurate 200 yard shot off the tee.

I cannot fathom anyone trying to drive that green from 300+ yards. Unless Dr. Gray were caddying for them, of course.

[Tom ORourke]

The 5th at Merion. It can play as a 500 yard par 4. It used to be around 425 yards. If it was 380 yards it would still be a good hole with the green sloping toward the creek, and the ridge that cuts through the green. And 15 at Bethpage might still be good due to the uphill second shot.

[Eric Smith]

14 at Dismal River comes to mind. We played one of the rounds during the 5th Major from the up tees (295) and it was a hoot.

Forward tee is to the left of this angle.



Solid risk / reward.

The slightest of pushes leaves a death or near death option from down here...



But a play towards the left hand side of the green, along with a fortuitous bounce can get you in for an eagle look.

[Mike Wagner]

You'll see one next week at Erin Hills - # 11.  #s 2 and 15 can be reachable from the up tees, but don't really fit the bill like #11. 

#11 from the back tees (which most people don't even know are there) it's a fantastic hole - pretty much a blind (but wide) fairway with way more room right than appears.

From the forward tee, carry the left bunker (about 30 yards short of the green) and watch it bowl into the middle of the green,

[Jud_T]

Re: playing #15 with good players, we've got some pretty good one headed up there in a few weeks so I'm interested to see how they play it and to get their reaction.  I'm pretty sure I've only seen that green in regulation hit once or twice, and one was by a friend that had wedge in his hand after he absolutely slaughtered one off the tee.  That hole kicks everyone's butt but what I like about it is that it is usually just a stern spanking.  I haven't seen many triple bogey or worse disasters there.  Mostly bogeys or doubles.  So, it is hard for the good golfer but not a round wrecker for the weaker player.

Tim,

I think I was in the group in front of you that day.  I was shocked to see someone with a sand wedge (?) in.  I was going to nominate this hole as well based on the green, but agree that it's better as is.  It still wouldn't be an easy par at 320.

[Sam Morrow]

What about a hole that used to be a great short par 4 and then they changed it into a long par 4? 7 at Augusta

[Tim Bert]

Re: playing #15 with good players, we've got some pretty good one headed up there in a few weeks so I'm interested to see how they play it and to get their reaction.  I'm pretty sure I've only seen that green in regulation hit once or twice, and one was by a friend that had wedge in his hand after he absolutely slaughtered one off the tee.  That hole kicks everyone's butt but what I like about it is that it is usually just a stern spanking.  I haven't seen many triple bogey or worse disasters there.  Mostly bogeys or doubles.  So, it is hard for the good golfer but not a round wrecker for the weaker player.

Tim,

I think I was in the group in front of you that day.  I was shocked to see someone with a sand wedge (?) in.  I was going to nominate this hole as well based on the green, but agree that it's better as is.  It still wouldn't be an easy par at 320.

I just checked the scorecard and that was actually the day you played with us not in front of us. So that's probably why you remember being so surprised. I think it was a pitching wedge not a sand wedge but it was a soft pitching wedge.  Jason had something like 132 left to the green. Funny thing is he has now played the hole probably 10 times and I don't think he has ever made par on the hole.  

[Jason Topp]

8 at pebble beach from the start of the fairway.  275 to fly it to the middle of the green with options to lay up short left of the green or really lay up to the spot where tee shots are hit now.  Throw in some weather and the best choice would vary every day.

[Kyle Henderson]

Jason,

If Pebble Beach was built today, I would imagine most designers would use the second shot at #8 as a par 3 and #7 might not exist. I could alsop see them putting the tees for #8 somewhere around the 6th green.

GCA should rent out Pebble for a day ("Elvis Style") and play it "Sheep Ranch" style.

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