The Old Macdonald dilemma....

[Joe Bentham]

I couldn't agree more Phil.

[Mike Benham]

While width and multiple options off the tee help the 'bogey' player I'd make the argument that they make things tougher for the 'good' player.  The 'good' player wants the architect to tell him what shot to hit.  A draw, a fade or what not to accommodate the penal nature of the architecture.  A 'good' player stands on a tee looking at a wide fairway and thinks 'I can hit it anywhere' and then when they are presented with a tough (or undoable) angle on their second shot they can't understand why.

"The 'good' player wants the architect to tell him what shot to hit."

But then golf simply becomes a matter of execution, which strikes me as pretty boring.

Phil / Joe -

Do you both find that true even after repeated plays of a course / hole?   

The better player has the ability to take advantage of width and shaping shots, the execution part that Phil finds boring, while the +bogey has little chance of being successful when trying to hit a shot that is not in his arsenal.

The better player, when faced with "tough (or undoable) angle on their second shot" will know not to be in that position again.

[Kalen Braley]

As someone who has played as a high capper most of my golfing life.....(even though recently in the last 6 months I've been playing better and am down to a 14 which is borderline mid-capper), let me clear up one misconception about us high cappers.

We are indeed capable of hitting good shots.
On occasion we do in fact hit a shot exactly how we envision it.
We do aim away from trouble and play for one side of the fairway.
We do consider strategy and are usually pretty good at understanding our limited abilities.

For the most part, we are only just inhibited by one thing...

...consistency.

A good player may hit 8 out 10 shots that are either great or good enough to get the job done
Whereas us high cappers may only do it 3-5 times out of 10.

I can play several long stretches of holes and rack up tons of pars. 

Just yesterday, I played a round on a medium level difficult course and had 7 pars and 8 single bogeys.  But I only managed a 88 because I had 2 triples and a double bogey.

We high cappers have the shots in the bag to make pars....its just a matter of consistency that kills us, not a complete lack of ability to hit good shots.

[Mike Benham]

... and are usually pretty good at understanding our limited abilities.

Kalen - Come on, you are a fine slouch ...

But your comment, which I have highlighted above, makes me ask, do you try to hit shots that the hole calls for (either based on the architecture or hole location) or hit shots that your are capable of?

Mike

[Phil McDade]

Mike:

I don't find executiion to be boring; on the contrary, the challenge of successfully executing the shot called for is one of the joys of the game. But the journey to the shot is also -- and perhaps to me, moreso -- an interesting part of the game.

I don't find courses in which the architect "tells me what shot to hit" --to borrow Joe's phrase -- to be all that interesting. Courses in which the architect hints at where to go, or provides mulitple options, or even hides the best line of approach, appeal to me a great deal.

[Kalen Braley]

... and are usually pretty good at understanding our limited abilities.

Kalen - Come on, you are a fine slouch ...

But your comment, which I have highlighted above, makes me ask, do you try to hit shots that the hole calls for (either based on the architecture or hole location) or hit shots that your are capable of?

Mike

Mike,

Thanks, i'll take "fine slouch" as a compliment indeed!!  


As it pertains to shot requirements, the answer is... it depends, and I'll explain.

As one who can't move the ball right to left on demand, but who can also hit a fade on demand, (with any club PW thru Driver)...I do always prefer to hit the ball either straight or with a bit of a fade on it.  So if there is any room for a fade or a straight ball, I will always play that shot type even if means flirting with tree branches or bunkers.

Now that being said, if I have a shot that requires a small draw, ie something that I have to move 5 yards or so right to left...I will try to hit that shot.  Every now and then I'll pull it off and it works out great, and if I miss it usually just means I have a long putt or have to play from the far side of a fairway.

However if the shot requires a big draw or a hook, then yes in those cases I will not attempt it and will either alter the shot, ie hit a different club or play a punch or some other type of layup as an alternate.

So for example, yesterday I played Indian Canyon which is very treed and more shots than not require a draw over a fade.  In most cases when I play out there, as was also the case yesterday, I usually find myself in 2-4 scenarios where I need to hit that big draw but have to do something else instead.  However, I would consider Indian Canyon to be the extreme of all the courses I play on a regular basis, so more often than not I usually only have maybe 1 or 2 shots per round where I'm "stuck"....so I guess I can live with that.

On the flip side when I'm 180 yards out and I need a big slice around a tree, I can hit those shots with a low running 4i and more often than not end up with a good result where i'm either on the green or pretty darn close to it.

P.S.  But that still doesn't mean just because I can't hit a nice big draw on demand that I can't do it.  It just means that more often than not when I hit those big draws I'm way left of my target because they are unintended!      

P.P.S But yes in some cases I feel like Ron White from the blue collar comedy tour, relaying a story about when he once got arrested outside a NY bar. He said:

"Just because I had the right to remain silent, didn't mean that I had the ability!  

[Andy Troeger]

George,
I don't think we're going to come to much consensus. I don't worry about the difference between an uphill or downhill putt unless the greens are exceptionally fast (which they are not at OM). Uneven lies are interesting, but they aren't something I think you "recover" from unless there is also rough or something else involved. Ditto a poor angle from the fairway. Old Mac's fairways are so wide that you have to be pretty off to miss them.

Keeping in mind that I'm not really that experienced at OM, I felt that most of the time it was really difficult to get the ball within 10-15 feet, but pretty simple to get the ball on some part of the green. Obviously it still matters where you hit it, but even with mediocre shots it wasn't especially tough to hit greens in regulation. Perhaps that doesn't apply to everyone. It leads to a lot of lag putting; even more so because so many of the recovery shots call for a play along the ground. It requires thought and is interesting for the individual shots, but its still repetitive when done repeatedly IMO.

[Tom_Doak]

Uneven lies are interesting, but they aren't something I think you "recover" from unless there is also rough or something else involved. Ditto a poor angle from the fairway.

Keeping in mind that I'm not really that experienced at OM, I felt that most of the time it was really difficult to get the ball within 10-15 feet, but pretty simple to get the ball on some part of the green. Obviously it still matters where you hit it, but even with mediocre shots it wasn't especially tough to hit greens in regulation. Perhaps that doesn't apply to everyone. It leads to a lot of lag putting; even more so because so many of the recovery shots call for a play along the ground. It requires thought and is interesting for the individual shots, but its still repetitive when done repeatedly IMO.

Andy:

No, you don't know Old Macdonald very well, and you never will based on your words above.  If you don't accept that driving in the wrong place makes it difficult to get within two-putt range of a certain hole location, and makes you risk missing the green in a place where you can't get up and down, then you are never going to see the logic in the course.

Have you ever played The Old Course at St. Andrews?

[Andy Troeger]

Tom,
I don't think you got the meaning of my post. Getting it on the green is a far cry from "two-putt range" on a course like OM. Hitting bad drives is more likely to lead to three-putts (or impossible short game shots) than instant trouble. Its not easy, but its too much emphasis on the flatstick for me.

Haven't played The Old Course...but my memory of last year's Open was watching lots of lag putting.

[William_G]

While width and multiple options off the tee help the 'bogey' player I'd make the argument that they make things tougher for the 'good' player.  The 'good' player wants the architect to tell him what shot to hit.  A draw, a fade or what not to accommodate the penal nature of the architecture.  A 'good' player stands on a tee looking at a wide fairway and thinks 'I can hit it anywhere' and then when they are presented with a tough (or undoable) angle on their second shot they can't understand why.

"The 'good' player wants the architect to tell him what shot to hit."

But then golf simply becomes a matter of execution, which strikes me as pretty boring.

Phil / Joe -

Do you both find that true even after repeated plays of a course / hole?   

The better player has the ability to take advantage of width and shaping shots, the execution part that Phil finds boring, while the +bogey has little chance of being successful when trying to hit a shot that is not in his arsenal.

The better player, when faced with "tough (or undoable) angle on their second shot" will know not to be in that position again.

I don't think any good player thinks they can hit it anywhere at Old Mac, because a good player always picks a spot to which he/she plays to. For eaxmple, #3 at Old Mac, hitting it anywhere over the dune will get you a second shot that can be from anywhere while there are potential advantages with hugging the tree more to the left. And with #4 you want to be left off the tee towards that gorse in thedistance, but you don't have to be, all the holes play as such, nuf said, thanks

The difference at Old Mac is there are no corridors within which you must play like at Trials.

There are definite advantages from start to finish on your chosenline of play from the tee.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,
I don't think you got the meaning of my post. Getting it on the green is a far cry from "two-putt range" on a course like OM. Hitting bad drives is more likely to lead to three-putts (or impossible short game shots) than instant trouble. Its not easy, but its too much emphasis on the flatstick for me.

Haven't played The Old Course...but my memory of last year's Open was watching lots of lag putting.

I understood, Andy, and I agree with you ... if you drive it badly, there's seldom instant trouble, but it's hard to get the ball into position with your approach in order to make four.

My problem is, why do you call that "emphasis on the flat stick"?  It's the drive and approach which put you in bogey position, not the flat stick.  You're implying that it's okay to hit a bad drive or approach and still make par, but only if you hit a "proper" recovery shot and not just a great lag putt.  You write as if someone who's really good with the putter will consistently save pars from those difficult spots, but they would have to be VERY good to do so consistently ... it's more likely that poor driving will lead to approaches 50-75 feet from the hole, which will lead to bogeys.  Why is it necessary to put in bunkers if those bogeys are going to happen without them? 

It's the same on The Old Course ... if you drive it wrong (generally left), you have to hit away from the holes (which are more guarded by bunkers than at Old Macdonald), and then you have to lag putt like crazy to avoid bogeys.

[Andy Troeger]

Tom,
I don't have a problem with the lag-putt as a strategy--its that its the strategy on almost every hole! Its better than "bunker front left and bunker front right" on every hole because of the natural variety of the ground, but its still repetitive IMO.  Can you honestly name a course (other than maybe The Old Course) where the average player uses a putter for a larger percentage of their strokes?

[Bill_McBride]

While width and multiple options off the tee help the 'bogey' player I'd make the argument that they make things tougher for the 'good' player.  The 'good' player wants the architect to tell him what shot to hit.  A draw, a fade or what not to accommodate the penal nature of the architecture.  A 'good' player stands on a tee looking at a wide fairway and thinks 'I can hit it anywhere' and then when they are presented with a tough (or undoable) angle on their second shot they can't understand why.

"The 'good' player wants the architect to tell him what shot to hit."

But then golf simply becomes a matter of execution, which strikes me as pretty boring.

Phil / Joe -

Do you both find that true even after repeated plays of a course / hole?   

The better player has the ability to take advantage of width and shaping shots, the execution part that Phil finds boring, while the +bogey has little chance of being successful when trying to hit a shot that is not in his arsenal.

The better player, when faced with "tough (or undoable) angle on their second shot" will know not to be in that position again.

I don't think any good player thinks they can hit it anywhere at Old Mac, because a good player always picks a spot to which he/she plays to. For eaxmple, #3 at Old Mac, hitting it anywhere over the dune will get you a second shot that can be from anywhere while there are potential advantages with hugging the tree more to the left. And with #4 you want to be left off the tee towards that gorse in thedistance, but you don't have to be, all the holes play as such, nuf said, thanks

The difference at Old Mac is there are no corridors within which you must play like at Trials.

There are definite advantages from start to finish on your chosenline of play from the tee.

At #4 you had better NOT not be down in the hollow to the right.    From there bogey is daunting.   

[Garland Bayley]

...
The difference at Old Mac is there are no corridors within which you must play like at Trials.

...

What on earth do you mean by that?

[William_G]

...
The difference at Old Mac is there are no corridors within which you must play like at Trials.

...

What on earth do you mean by that?

Labryinth without guide rails. 

[Anthony Gray]

  OM is not as wide open as people think. It is very playable but the holes do have nice seperation.

  Anthony

[Garland Bayley]

...
The difference at Old Mac is there are no corridors within which you must play like at Trials.

...

What on earth do you mean by that?

Labryinth without guide rails. 

As a wild sprayer of shots, I found no "corridor" at Trails that was significant to my wild swings. It appears that you simply are referring to the woods that border the Trails course. If so, that corridor appears to me to be wide enough that you will get yourself in quite a bit of trouble on Old MacDonald too if you stray that far astray.

If you are referring to the bunkering that more extensively guard the edges at Trails than at Old MacDonald, then I could better understand your comment. But there is a good chance to advance your ball from the bunkers.