The Old Macdonald dilemma....

[Joe Bentham]

The first top 100 lists that Old Macdonald is eligible are finally out, and as we expected it faired pretty well.  3rd on the Modern list for Golfweek and 43rd in the U.S. according to Golf Magazine.
I think we all knew that the raters where going to like it.  I said for a couple of years after Bandon Trails opened and before Old Macdonald did that the resort could build a course backwards and upside down and get it ranked highly in all the top 100 lists.  Some of the caddie yard and a lot of the guests this year would argue that Old Macdonald proves that theory.
The caddie yard has a impossible time not letting how a course is to loop influence their opinion on the golf course, and rightfully so.  I've been fighting that issue for years now.  It is my windmill, and I think it is a losing battle.
As for the guests, I think most of the negative opinions could be chalked up to the 'scorecard and pencil' mentality  and not understanding the course or its intentions.
My question for the clubhouse is this: Why is there such a varying degree of opinions on Old Macdonald?

[Tom_Doak]

I said for a couple of years after Bandon Trails opened and before Old Macdonald did that the resort could build a course backwards and upside down and get it ranked highly in all the top 100 lists.  Some of the caddie yard and a lot of the guests this year would argue that Old Macdonald proves that theory.

Gee, Joe, thanks for the ringing endorsement.  Feeling like it's time to move on from Bandon?

I am not surprised that the course is controversial, and I am a bit surprised that it's been so highly ranked.  Still, I've said from the beginning, if it winds up with 26% of the play at the resort, that would mean it's successful -- so we built a course that not everyone would love, but that hopefully at least 26% would love the most.  How is that target holding up?

[PCCraig]

Who is "we?"

I haven't played OM, but it sure looks fun and most of the people I know who have played it really like it. I wouldn't expect everyone to love the course though, as I'm assuming not everyone who visits Bandon even knows what he/she likes or what they're talking about when they bash a course.

From what I've heard and read the greens are pretty severe at OM, perhaps most golfers just aren't good enough or have the patience for severe greens (regardless of if they are fair or not?)

[Garland Bayley]

Here's another ringing endorsement for Tom.

People figured it was just about time for Tom to have a high rated course so they did it for him with Pacific Dunes. They were mistaken, they should have waited until he helped Jim Urbina bring the truly great course there.

Clearly sticks are going to like Pacific Dunes. Clearly sticks are more apt to travel to places like Bandon. Clearly if high numbers of high handicappers were to travel to Bandon and give their opinions to caddies (which they aren't hiring, because they ain't paying for golf lessons either) then it would be Old MacDonald in a landslide.

[JLahrman]

Joe,

Some people like the course, some people don't.

Some caddies like the course, some people don't.

What is the "dilemma" that you titled the thread with?

[K. Krahenbuhl]

I've spoken to multiple people that have played Old MacDonald this year who have very little to zero interest in playing it again.

[George Pazin]

I suspect, based on his concluding question, Joe meant something more like "paradox" - or another even better word that one of our resident wordsmiths can come up with.

People have different preferences in most things, why would golf be that much different that we would expect uniformity?

Remind me not to ask Kyle's friends for recommendations...

[Joe Bentham]

I said for a couple of years after Bandon Trails opened and before Old Macdonald did that the resort could build a course backwards and upside down and get it ranked highly in all the top 100 lists.  Some of the caddie yard and a lot of the guests this year would argue that Old Macdonald proves that theory.

Gee, Joe, thanks for the ringing endorsement.  Feeling like it's time to move on from Bandon?

No, Tom.  I was only pointing out how powerful the 'Bandon Dunes' name brand had become in the world of golf.  IF you read closely you'll see that I said "some of the caddie yard and a lot of the guest".  I never said I'd make that argument.  Here are some of my thoughts on Old Macdonald.
http://pacduneslooper.com/2009/11/02/4-of-the-luckiest-guys-in-the-world/
http://pacduneslooper.com/2010/05/18/old-macdonald-vs-pacific-dunes-match-play/
http://pacduneslooper.com/2011/07/04/old-macdonald-on-steroids/
Ringing enough for you?
I think Old Macdonald is awesome.  Very unique (from my perspective), and just a ton of fun to play.  I think most on this board would agree with that assessment. The dilemma or paradox is why and how so many others wouldn't and don't.  It is a big question, and I guess this board really isn't interested in answering those types of questions.  
I'm consistently disappointed with how little thought people will put into what they'll type on the internet.....

[Bill_McBride]

Old Macdonald is extremely playable for higher handicaps.   As always you just have to know your limitations and do some thinking.   There are many fun shots to be played out there, and great width and angles.   Familiarity with the Macdonald-Raynor motifs just enhances the fun.

Sometimes I think Joe likes being controversial for the sake of being controversial.  

Kyle, what reason did your friends give for disliking OM?

[JMEvensky]

Clearly if high numbers of high handicappers were to travel to Bandon and give their opinions to caddies (which they aren't hiring, because they ain't paying for golf lessons either) then it would be Old MacDonald in a landslide.

Garland,I've taken this quote out of context and I apologize for the implication that I'm getting ready to make.

Tom Doak,assuming that the statement is accurate,is this a back-handed compliment?

[Peter_Herreid]

Kyle--

I suspect the prevailing GCA response upon reading your statement was "Yahoo!  More open slots for me at Old Macdonald!", but actually I have heard much the same response from very knowledgeable, skillful and respectful players up here, and I think that it is entirely possible that, like most things in life when the choice is "which one out of four", the overall response is much, much closer to the "26%" Tom D playfully threw out...

It is practically a capital offense here on GCA to suggest otherwise, but my own response to Old Macdonald was somewhat tempered as well.  I very much hope to get the same exposure to OM that I have had at Pacific Dunes (over 30 rounds now), but after 3 rounds I am a qualified "Hmm".  Of course Bandon Trails is slowly but surely growing on me after 5 years and almost 12 rounds, but I wasn't in love with it after the first 5-6 rounds..

I don't consider it a dilemma though..more like choosing between butter pecan ice cream, which I love, and chocolate fudge ice cream, which I don't happen to love but can completely understand why others do...

I think the dilemma Joe refers to is that the caddies don't have the immediate love that GCA, raters, etc do for OM--maybe I'm reading him wrong though..

[George Pazin]

I don't consider it a dilemma though..more like choosing between butter pecan ice cream, which I love, and chocolate fudge ice cream, which I don't happen to love but can completely understand why others do...

That's it! If and when we ever meet, we are definitely droppin' the gloves!

Wish I could comment on OM...

[Joe Bentham]

Clearly sticks are going to like Pacific Dunes. Clearly sticks are more apt to travel to places like Bandon. Clearly if high numbers of high handicappers were to travel to Bandon and give their opinions to caddies (which they aren't hiring, because they ain't paying for golf lessons either) then it would be Old MacDonald in a landslide.

At least 80% of our guests are taking caddies in season.  Sticks, high handicappers, beginners.  Everybody.  High handicappers struggle with old mac the most.  They can't lag putt, and they can't chip so just because they can't lose a golf ball doesn't mean Old Mac is easiest for them.  It is hard to lose a golf ball on all 4 courses at the resort.  Thanks for you uniformed input though....

[Joe Bentham]

Sometimes I think Joe likes being controversial for the sake of being controversial.  

I don't mind a good argument but I don't see what I said that was controversial in the least bit.  And I'm offended that my passion and love for Bandon Dunes was called into question....anybody who actually knows me would laugh at that thought

[Jim Colton]

Joe (or Tom),

Do you suspect that Old Mac will eventually start to move down from its initial rank (especially Golfweek), considering it's likely that those playing and ranking it in 2010 were more likely to seek it out and more likely to enjoy it than Raters playing it in subsequent years? I haven't paid enough attention to how other courses have debuted and migrated after opening.

Jim

[Garland Bayley]

Clearly sticks are going to like Pacific Dunes. Clearly sticks are more apt to travel to places like Bandon. Clearly if high numbers of high handicappers were to travel to Bandon and give their opinions to caddies (which they aren't hiring, because they ain't paying for golf lessons either) then it would be Old MacDonald in a landslide.

At least 80% of our guests are taking caddies in season.  Sticks, high handicappers, beginners.  Everybody.  High handicappers struggle with old mac the most.  They can't lag putt, and they can't chip so just because they can't lose a golf ball doesn't mean Old Mac is easiest for them.  It is hard to lose a golf ball on all 4 courses at the resort.  Thanks for you uniformed input though....

I must have been there out of "season" when I saw nobody taking a caddy.

Also, Joe, there was a bit of TIC (tongue in cheek) in my post.
Removing tongue from cheek, I was a single and in my foursome the best player was clearly frustrated with balls not stopping where he wanted them to, balls bouncing in unplanned directions, fearsome bunkers springing up where he hit his ball, etc. I simply assumed he would have similar experience at the other courses. His less talented buddies were taking delight in the things that peeved him. There you have my statistical survey of one round. I'll check out now.

[Kalen Braley]

It is hard to lose a golf ball on all 4 courses at the resort.  

Surely you jest.

All that ball eating Gorse and ball "going off the abyss" shoreline is just imaginary?      

[Bill_McBride]

It is hard to lose a golf ball on all 4 courses at the resort.  

Surely you jest.

All that ball eating Gorse and ball "going off the abyss" shoreline is just imaginary?      

Kalen, I think Joe means it's hard to lose a ball IF you don't hit it in the gorse or off the cliff!

[Kalen Braley]

It is hard to lose a golf ball on all 4 courses at the resort.  

Surely you jest.

All that ball eating Gorse and ball "going off the abyss" shoreline is just imaginary?      

Kalen, I think Joe means it's hard to lose a ball IF you don't hit it in the gorse or off the cliff!

Ahhh

So if I'm Scott Verplank or Fred Funk, then its hard to lose a ball.  So silly of me to think otherwise!!   

[Garland Bayley]

It is hard to lose a golf ball on all 4 courses at the resort.  

Surely you jest.

All that ball eating Gorse and ball "going off the abyss" shoreline is just imaginary?      

Kalen, I think Joe means it's hard to lose a ball IF you don't hit it in the gorse or off the cliff!

Ahhh

So if I'm Scott Verplank or Fred Funk, then its hard to lose a ball.  So silly of me to think otherwise!!   

That's the thing with us high handicappers. We try harder. I lost 5 at PD alone. And that's not counting the two I was able to gingerly retrieve from the gorse.

[Mike Benham]

The caddie yard has a impossible time not letting how a course is to loop influence their opinion on the golf course, and rightfully so. 

Joe -  I'm a little confused with the sentence above, can you clarify?

[Mike Nuzzo]

It is a big question, and I guess this board really isn't interested in answering those types of questions.  
I'm consistently disappointed with how little thought people will put into what they'll type on the internet.....

4 posts and 1 hour.  Are you this impatient with your players?   

Have you read this?:
There is no greatest golf course: there are only greatest golf courses
http://www.mnuzzo.com/pdf/GAV5.pdf

Cheers

[Tom_Doak]

Joe (or Tom),

Do you suspect that Old Mac will eventually start to move down from its initial rank (especially Golfweek), considering it's likely that those playing and ranking it in 2010 were more likely to seek it out and more likely to enjoy it than Raters playing it in subsequent years? I haven't paid enough attention to how other courses have debuted and migrated after opening.

Jim

Jim:

That phenomenon is generally true for all new courses that debut highly in the rankings.  The people who tend to seek them out first are the people who like that particular architect's work.  Once more of the general population goes to see if they were right about the new course, it tends to slip down the list.  But, I don't know if it's as true for Bandon as for other places ... a lot of people were going there to play golf irrespective of the opening of Old Macdonald, so they weren't necessarily as self-selected of a group.

Plus, I am still out there trying to build new courses that are even better! 

[Joe Bentham]

The caddie yard has a impossible time not letting how a course is to loop influence their opinion on the golf course, and rightfully so. 

Joe -  I'm a little confused with the sentence above, can you clarify?

Mike
Caddies want players to make putts and score well.  They think it is the determining factor in weather or not they did a good job.  I guess it is human nature.  So when a discussion about the golf courses come up it is hard for caddies to talk as golfers about the golf courses instead of caddies.

[Ted Cahill]

Full disclosure- I take Joe as a looper whenever possible at Bandon Dunes.  His enthusiasm for the resort, golf and GCA is infectious.  Needless to say, I am a big fan of Joe's.  Folks- go back and read his original post- he raised an interesting question from a very informed/exprienced viewpoint.  These are the kind of posts/perspective that this board needs more of (as opposed to neurotic obsessive study of a handful of classics).  We can do without the prickly slights (Tom) or knee jerk rush to judments (many of the rest of you). 

I love Old MacDonald.  The first time I arrived to the 3rd tee and stared at that imposing dune and said "I'm expected to hit over that with this 3 club wind in my face??!!"  And then preceded to do just that- wow was that exciting- plus the hike up the dune and the landscape and horizon that smacks you in the face- I could go on and on with how exciting and unique I find this course/design is.  From what I understand- Trails is the caddies favorite course, but last in rounds played?  Joe- a piece from you on your observations about how caddies and players recieve these courses differently would be great- you are probably the best resource for the question you ask.