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Alfonso Erhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
From Greenkeeper to Designer
« on: August 13, 2011, 01:54:06 PM »
As some of you know, I am working on a book of Javier Arana, the Spanish golf architect.  He started working as Greens Committe Chairman in his home club, then had the role of "Honorary Greenkeeper" and after tweaking his home course, became a full-time GCA. I am trying to address some questions posed by this evolution and looking for some "collective intelligence" on the matter:

 - Can a greenkeeping background condition the design philosophy of a a GCA any differently than other backgrounds? If so, in what manner?
 - Are there other notable GCAs who had a similar evolution in their careers?
 
Thanks and regards,

Alfonso
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Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: From Greenkeeper to Designer
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2011, 02:14:57 PM »
That's the "Old School" progression, which fits an Old Tom Morris, or Donald Ross, or a man like Arthur "Jack" Snyder (Oakmont).

I'm sure there are many examples from the 'modern' era.
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"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: From Greenkeeper to Designer
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2011, 02:24:24 PM »
I was a greenkeeper, before I branched out into golf course design in 1989. I think its a much better progression than the golf pro route, you really understand the physical problems and needs of maintaining a golf course, too many golf pro's/designers make fundamental mistakes of thinking just purely about what is great for golf without inputting the way the turf is going to behave, typically you see bunkers placed in a direct line from exit routes off the greens which concentrates traffic which can lead to bare or poor turf. Many golf clubs tackle their own redesign and construction work inhouse if they have a good super. Ideally a good super needs to understand how a good player plays, he does not need to be scratch himself, but he needs to think scrtch.
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A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Steve Okula

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: From Greenkeeper to Designer
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2011, 02:34:11 PM »
Jeremy Slessor, the CEO of European Golf Design, started as a greenkeeper. While not an architect per se, the company he manages has designed dozens of golf courses all over the world, and all of a high calibre, and it does fill me with envy.
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The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Brett Morris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: From Greenkeeper to Designer
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2011, 04:26:00 PM »
Bill Coore was a Superintendent.
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JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: From Greenkeeper to Designer
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2011, 04:26:51 PM »
The guy who did Sagebrush was a super.
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I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Sam Morrow

Re: From Greenkeeper to Designer
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2011, 10:07:21 PM »
Wasn't Whitman a super also?
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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: From Greenkeeper to Designer
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2011, 10:16:38 PM »
Rod may have been a superintendent, but I'm not sure when.

Bill Coore was a construction guy wanting to be an architect from the beginning.  When the business slowed to a crawl in 1980, much like it has today, Dick Psolla advised him to stay on at the course he had built and be the superintendent for a while, that it would be a steady job and would be good for his career -- which I guess it was! 

But it's not like he started as a superintendent and then made the leap.  I'm sure many have, but am too tired to come up with a list right now.  I did meet one in France this year, Stuart Hallet.
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Sam Morrow

Re: From Greenkeeper to Designer
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2011, 10:17:47 PM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on August 13, 2011, 10:16:38 PM
Rod may have been a superintendent, but I'm not sure when.

Bill Coore was a construction guy wanting to be an architect from the beginning.  When the business slowed to a crawl in 1980, much like it has today, Dick Psolla advised him to stay on at the course he had built and be the superintendent for a while, that it would be a steady job and would be good for his career -- which I guess it was! 

But it's not like he started as a superintendent and then made the leap.  I'm sure many have, but am too tired to come up with a list right now.  I did meet one in France this year, Stuart Hallet.

Was Whitman the super at Waterwood National maybe?
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Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: From Greenkeeper to Designer
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2011, 10:36:17 PM »
Former Super at Augusta National:

http://www.billyfuller.com/
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"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: From Greenkeeper to Designer
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2011, 06:43:24 AM »
Sam:

Bill Coore was the superintendent at Waterwood National.  Rod worked on his crew there.  I don't think he was ever the head guy after Bill departed, seeing as how he wasn't a citizen of the US.
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Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: From Greenkeeper to Designer
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2011, 08:08:19 AM »
Geoffrey Cornish would fit the category. He received a bachelor/masters degrees in agronomy and was first hired by Thompson to evaluate soil. He then spent some time as a superintendent in Winnipeg, Canada, before turning to architecture.

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"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: From Greenkeeper to Designer
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2011, 08:41:29 AM »
I was a greens keeper at Pebble several decades ago, eventually heading up special projects. I was primarily there to advance my knowledge of golf design (along with a few other things one does in their early 20's). I had just made enough money to quit working offshore on the oil rigs in Louisana...drove straight to what I considered the golf mecca of the time...Pebble Beach...and asked for a job. As luck would have it someone had just left the previous day!
« Last Edit: August 14, 2011, 08:29:49 PM by paul cowley »
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paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: From Greenkeeper to Designer
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2011, 09:11:06 AM »
Rod worked for Bill at Waterwood while he was at Sam Houston State Univ. then, some time shortly thereafter, took care of the Devon Golf Course for a season or two. He still says he had the best greens in Alberta back then, but I don't believe him! 
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jeffmingay.com

Sam Morrow

Re: From Greenkeeper to Designer
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2011, 12:18:39 PM »
Thanks guys, it's something else that those 2 guys worked at Waterwood. It's sad to think what has happened to the place.
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RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: From Greenkeeper to Designer
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2011, 12:25:29 PM »
Foullis, Diddel, and a few of the ODGs.  C&W makes note of the bios of archies. 
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No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Steve Okula

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: From Greenkeeper to Designer
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2011, 05:54:25 PM »
Bobby Weed, former GCS at TPC Sawgrass, also comes to mind.
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The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Morgan Stephenson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: From Greenkeeper to Designer
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2011, 07:33:53 PM »
Kris Spence was a superintendent before going into design.
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Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: From Greenkeeper to Designer
« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2011, 08:08:06 PM »

Wasn't Flynn the greenskeeper at Merion prior to starting his architectural business?
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"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: From Greenkeeper to Designer
« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2011, 11:37:35 PM »
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Lester George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: From Greenkeeper to Designer
« Reply #20 on: August 17, 2011, 11:03:52 AM »

Jerry Lemons, ASGCA

Lester
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Bruce_Dixon

Re: From Greenkeeper to Designer
« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2011, 12:19:35 PM »
Sid Puddicombe from Edmonton.
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michael damico

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: From Greenkeeper to Designer
« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2011, 04:15:06 PM »
Steve Wolfard?
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"without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible"
                                                                -fz
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