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Steve Strasheim

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Pictorial: The Castle Course!!!
« Reply #50 on: August 17, 2011, 06:51:35 PM »
Of course they want to make money. You don't spend 10 mill to alleviate the pressure.

Melvyn, what would you do to change it? What do you think they should have done, assuming another course was necessary?

Melvyn Morrow

Re: A Pictorial: The Castle Course!!!
« Reply #51 on: August 17, 2011, 07:03:10 PM »
Tom

From my understanding my cousin has not sold the building - the shop was no longer within the family, but she owned the building, so when she told me of the sale by the brothers (who ran and took over the business from my cousins mother) she made no mention that she was involved. Now just think if the next door building sold for £4 million what would you value Old Tom shop (excluding the business)? Did the Trust spend that amount or more? My value for both would be in excess of £6million, but she did not mention she was selling her St Andrews home, so it’s just the business.

Melvyn

Steve, close it and find a new site - its just wrong for the Home of Golf, Kingsbarn is more fitting but its got that international I.D. so will not do.

 

Tom Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Pictorial: The Castle Course!!!
« Reply #52 on: August 17, 2011, 07:16:16 PM »
Of course they want to make money. You don't spend 10 mill to alleviate the pressure.

Melvyn, what would you do to change it? What do you think they should have done, assuming another course was necessary?

They didn't want to spend £10mil (or in that ball park figure) to start with or so I am told, they only did after the Architects pleaded with them, saying the 7th course at St Andrews deserved to be a top quality course and on the land available money needed to be spent.

I am just repeating what I have been told by people involved at the Trust/working for the Trust.


Melvyn

Sorry but I am confused. So the business was sold but not the property? How does that work? Is the shop downstairs a separate property by law to the upstairs and rest of building? Or does the business rent/lease the shop? I agree you valuation seems relatively fair for the entire building with the history and everything taken into account, it would be interesting to hear how much the trust did spend!

Being close/part of the Morris family are you disappointed that the Trust now runs the shop? Would you have preferred the previous owners to stay? I assume ideally it would still be kept in the family?

Is there another site available that is in or at least very near to St Andrews? I can't think of one without going inland.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 07:18:54 PM by Thomas Kelly »

Steve Strasheim

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Pictorial: The Castle Course!!!
« Reply #53 on: August 17, 2011, 07:31:38 PM »
The pictures of this course are absolutely beautiful. The architect has obviously done lots right here.

Agree that the bunkers don't seem to fit. They look like they belong in Florida, not at St. Andrews.

Tom Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Pictorial: The Castle Course!!!
« Reply #54 on: August 17, 2011, 07:43:08 PM »
The pictures of this course are absolutely beautiful. The architect has obviously done lots right here.

Agree that the bunkers don't seem to fit. They look like they belong in Florida, not at St. Andrews.

Your first statement is why I am trying to defend the course slightly. There may have made a few mistakes but there has also been a lot of good work done on what was a relatively poor sight other than the stunning views

As for the bunkering I am told they didn't want to try to copy the pot bunkering of the other St Andrews courses, but try something slightly different which may not have quite worked for some people. I think the bunkering style used at Castle Stuart of the transitional period of mixed revetted faces and 'waste areas' would have been perfect here.

Also Adrian Stiff mentioned in the other thread that the bunker sand doesn't look quite so white now, but a more natural pinky look is there, which helps.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: A Pictorial: The Castle Course!!!
« Reply #55 on: August 17, 2011, 09:00:40 PM »

Tom

The building which has the shop on the ground floor became Old Tom’s home in the early 1900 leaving the main house with its entrance on Pilmour Links to the Hunter children. The garden of the main house connects to the side and back of the building the shop occupies. Looking at the front of the shop, the left hand door runs under the first floor to the entrance of the flat above the shop then continues to the back garden of the main house.

Remember you are talking about Scotland where many properties have the stairs to the first floor outside. So yes the two areas are not interconnected so can function as shop and flat above.
 
The shop was owned by my father’s cousin who was not that interested in the shop. She made arrangement which culminating in the manager taking over the shop, then his two sons. I believe it was these two sons who sold out to the Trust. Quite frankly they did not know what they had, or how to make the best, lacking serious marketing abilities. My last visit to the shop horrified me as there was no service, the shop was well out of date and the management did not have a clue. Using the family name, the shop Old Tom owned, I am very pleased that these two have departed and the Trust are in charge of the rented (I believe)  shop.

AS for the 7th Course, while not in possion of all the facts, I believe that a 7th course in not required and to be honest the 4th, 5th & 6th Courses need to be modified to present the face of St Andrews the Home of Golf. MY reasoning being if St Andrews is going to sell itself as the Home of Golf, then they need to present to the public at large courses that relate to this area. Not a mixed assortment of any type of course in the hope that golfer will buy the whole package. The Trust have a duty of care to the courses and the people of St Andrews, to present them with a standard in keeping with what they are selling and represent, not anything that’s fake or built upon land totally unfit for purpose. IMHO time and money needs to be spent on the other courses to bring them into line with the Old, New and Jubilee. To keep putting in standard run of the mill courses will not do, they detract from the reason the Trust is in place and quite frankly is unfair to the golfing world who come to experience our courses. I do not want to see an English or American standard course or any international mix, I want to see more traditional courses that’s why many come to St. Andrews. Otherwise why spend all that money just to play TOC, golfers want variety but Scottish variety not another fake mess available anywhere else in this world.

Golfers put their faith and trust in the Trust to honour their commitments, yet we are presented with what I would call 3.5 good courses in St Andrews. So we need the Trust to keep faith with the golfers who spend a fortune coming to play golf at St Andrews, so should be presented with good courses that are at one and at home with their surroundings. There is more to building a golf course than a good design and lots of money, we should have understood that years ago. My opinion is that the Castle course betrays all that TOC represents and questions the integrity of people that think that giving the golfing public a course like The Castle is acceptable – I say it’s not, certainly not at St Andrews the Home of Golf, just what is there to be proud of in this helter skelta course.   

Melvyn


Tom Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Pictorial: The Castle Course!!!
« Reply #56 on: August 17, 2011, 09:17:48 PM »
Melvyn

Very interesting to here about the shop. I agree with you the shop under the previous management of the brothers you mention did seem poor. When I was there last year (I lived up in St Andrews for all of last summer) I thought the shop was completely out of date, even more so when you think of the competition it has nearby and the marketing potential the place has. It was a pity. That is why I assumed in a previous comment that the business was probably not doing so well!

I also agree that investment on the other courses would be a wise move. The Old, New and Jub as you say are top draw, the Eden has potential to be a very good course but the Strath could do with a bit of work and money. The green sites are not bad for a basic course on very flat land, but it is obvious the course was built on a small budget and some fairway bunkers to add some strategy wouldn't go amiss! I have a feeling the extra money for construction and resulting high cost at the Castle is because the Architects designing it didn't want to see another Strath being built and having the St Andrews name attached to it?! Would that have hurt you more to see another cheap course like the Strath or is the Castle a better option...you don't have to answer that as I guess your answer will be that you wish neither were built!

Its all very interesting anyhow!