[Sean Leary]

I will be interested in seeing where the various conversations go with the discussion of Aldarra, which I have consistently suggested is the strongest test of the entire bag we have up here in the Seattle area.  While in my opinion Chambers Bay is overall the better course, and CB clearly fits my eye and aesthetics to a T, one can find a way to maneuver around CB when one is off one's game.

You just can't do that at Aldarra...Even when played from the proper tees for one's game, I find it a relentless examination and a course on which it is almost impossible for me to find a rhythm until it's far too late.  The rough can be punishingly thick (if not necesssarily deep), the fescues essentially unplayable and the playing corridors, particularly from #3-#6 seeming more narrow than they really are.

I think there are some world-class holes at Aldarra, and it will be fun to see if the treehouse feels the same way.  I have had many conversations with Sean about the strenghts and weakenesses of Aldarra and he is very generous in both his praise and criticism of the course.

Mark's pictures so far seem to be capturing one element that stands out for me at Aldarra; the tiered and shelved nature of many of the greens.  This really is a dominant feature on the greensites there, and many of the shelves seem to propel and reject shots, as opposed to gathering them.  On #2, for example, it is difficult to grasp just how meaningful those shelves are in challenging the tee shots.  Personally, I think that the dependence on some of the tiers and shelves is overdone at Aldarra, and this is similar to how I feel about Witch Hollow, for example, particularly when combined with the firmness of the greens and the comparative softness of many of the green entries.

The course is really quite beautiful, with different hues and textures in the various seasons, and to that extent is very representative of the great natural beauty we have up here.  I will look forward to any wide shots Mark may have upcoming of the east-facing holes in particular...

Hi Doc.

We are pretty much in total agreement. Its a tough course where low cappers seem to really love it and higher handicappers not so much. It is a relentless test. The membership in general thinks it should be more highly ranked than it is because a) its hard, in great shape and beautiful, and b) they think its better than Sahalee and Sahalee is Top 50 in GD. What they of course don't know is that there are 20-25 Fazio's alone that are equally good or better.

The course has some strengths and some definite weaknesses. If you hit big foul balls it is VERY intimidating despite wide playing corridors. But if you hit it 220 to 250ish and relatively straight it is very playable from the correct set of tees. It has a good ebb and flow between its harder holes and some easier holes. The stretch from 6-12 is where it can be "gotten". Strong playing membership where almost NO one plays the back tees.  The routing is an issue, but there really wasn't much he could do about most of that. He did make about 12 visits during construction which is apparently a lot for him, as he had a relationship with one of the founders.

3 is a really really good 3 shot par 5. I played with a number of young bucks before the Mid Am qualifier and it was interesting to see them play it for the first time. Driver, and 3 wood hit perfectly put them in a place that they didn't want to be despite being in the middle of the fairway. All decided to lay up in the qualifier.

Course record is 61 from the tips which will never ever be touched. Next best is one 65. For the US mid am qualifier they played it up on 5 holes, as the last one they had was a bloodbath. In my view the difficulty of the course is NOT a positive, and steps have been taken to make it play a bit easier.

I have played it with a number of GCAers, some who think highly of it and some who do not, (which I understand and am not offended by at all). The intent of the club was to make it a golf only club for good players, and they succeeded in that. It certainly isn't for everyone, and that is OK.

[Sean Leary]

I like the hole, though. I would not call it a weaker hole on the course. Could be worse....could have been another dogleg left

Second person to mention the dogleg lefts. Funny thing is that there are 3 dogleg lefts (1,8,14), and 3-4 dogleg rights (5, 17,18 and maybe 3) . But it does feel that way because the tee shots on the dogleg lefts feel and look pretty similar. Shocker from Fazio, I know.

[Mark Saltzman]

I like the hole, though. I would not call it a weaker hole on the course. Could be worse....could have been another dogleg left

Second person to mention the dogleg lefts. Funny thing is that there are 3 dogleg lefts (1,8,14), and 3-4 dogleg rights (5, 17,18 and maybe 3) . But it does feel that way because the tee shots on the dogleg lefts feel and look pretty similar. Shocker from Fazio, I know.

Sean, you're definitely right, the dogleg left holes are really just those three. That's weird because I could have sworn there were more of them. Do a few of the holes move a little bit left? Just from memory, I recall holes 10, 11 and 16 all moving that way a bit, though they may just be straight.

I think the real reason, as you say, is that the tee shots on 1 and 14 feel identical with the shape of the hole.

And BTW, I was a big fan of number 4 and in no way consider it a weak hole. 18 like that is boring, but one is interesting and demanding.

I particularly like what Brad said About it: "this is what we could have done, but we didn't."

[Garland Bayley]

...

I have played it with a number of GCAers, some who think highly of it and some who do not, (which I understand and am not offended by at all). The intent of the club was to make it a golf only club for good players, and they succeeded in that. It certainly isn't for everyone, and that is OK.

Too bad we didn't get Doak's Wicked Pony for good players to compare it to.

[Sean Leary]

I like the hole, though. I would not call it a weaker hole on the course. Could be worse....could have been another dogleg left

Second person to mention the dogleg lefts. Funny thing is that there are 3 dogleg lefts (1,8,14), and 3-4 dogleg rights (5, 17,18 and maybe 3) . But it does feel that way because the tee shots on the dogleg lefts feel and look pretty similar. Shocker from Fazio, I know.

Sean, you're definitely right, the dogleg left holes are really just those three. That's weird because I could have sworn there were more of them. Do a few of the holes move a little bit left? Just from memory, I recall holes 10, 11 and 16 all moving that way a bit, though they may just be straight.

I think the real reason, as you say, is that the tee shots on 1 and 14 feel identical with the shape of the hole.

And BTW, I was a big fan of number 4 and in no way consider it a weak hole. 18 like that is boring, but one is interesting and demanding.

I particularly like what Brad said About it: "this is what we could have done, but we didn't."

10 11 and 16 are basically straight. The hole shape of 8 is similar to 1 and 14 as well, so that is why it feels left to right heavy..

[Sean Leary]

...

I have played it with a number of GCAers, some who think highly of it and some who do not, (which I understand and am not offended by at all). The intent of the club was to make it a golf only club for good players, and they succeeded in that. It certainly isn't for everyone, and that is OK.

Too bad we didn't get Doak's Wicked Pony for good players to compare it to.

Agreed.

I can almost guarantee that you aren't going to like Aldarra much, based upon your preferences

[Garland Bayley]

...

I have played it with a number of GCAers, some who think highly of it and some who do not, (which I understand and am not offended by at all). The intent of the club was to make it a golf only club for good players, and they succeeded in that. It certainly isn't for everyone, and that is OK.

Too bad we didn't get Doak's Wicked Pony for good players to compare it to.

Agreed.

I can almost guarantee that you aren't going to like Aldarra much, based upon your preferences

You mean to tell me you have ponds there?
I'll have to remember to bring my 9 wood for driving straight.

[Peter_Herreid]

As expected, Sean has raised a number of different small, but fascinating, points about Aldarra that often go unnoticed when we all discuss some of these top tracks that not so many from GCA have much experience with..

Regarding routing, my recollection going back to the late nineties is that there was a lot of wrangling over could and could get done, and where they could or couldn't go, on the property.  It is somewhat of an unusually shaped property, a bit like a squashed triangle, with the highest point at the obtuse angle along the west-southwest corner and essentially no ability to "trespass" into the broad expanse along the long edge of the property from north-northwest to southeast.  To get the holes that TF did into that domain is really quite impressive, especially since there had to have been considerable limitations regarding wetlands, etc...

There is an uphill, then downhill two hole stretch coming up that might engender some fun discussion about what "could have been", but what "could have been" might not even have been permissible, let alone advisable, so that's where such discussions often break down.

Next, the "mission" of the club from the very beginning was, as Sean suggests, never to be all things to a broad membership.  I only ever remember Aldarra as being touted as the "exclusive enclave of the very best players in the region" and its toughness was always its calling card.  As such, especially in its earlier years, one never went there expecting to be anything other than beaten up...Sean mentions that slowly but surely things have softened there, and from this one visitor's opinion, that seems to be true although I can't exactly put my finger on why.  Anyway, I think that TF likely had a certain "mission" at Aldarra and I'd have to say he delivered in spades...

While I personally wouldn't classify Aldarra as "fun" or "sporty" or "full of charm" by traditional GCA terminology, I would split 10 rounds between it and any combination of the 27 at Sahalee probably 9:1 or 8:2 any day.

Next up--Mark, do you have a pic from the back tee on #5--Yowza!

[Mark Saltzman]

A look at the routing:

Edit: routing moved to first post.

[Andy Troeger]

The 3rd hole is really a good one. I like that tree off the end of the tee that mentally gets in your head a bit, even if you really would never hit the ball on that line unless you're trying to hit a big fade. I'm not always a big fan of big trees as major hazards, but it works really well there.

The 4th is ok because its a change of pace from most of the rest of the course. You can't really shape shots, but since it only occurs one time, I'm ok with a hole that benefits the player that can actually hit a straight away shot. Its harder than you'd think.

Regarding Sahalee, I'd suggest that anyone visiting with the opportunity play it once. Its probably going to be a unique experience unless you live in the Pacific Northwest, and some will evidently really like it. Aldarra is a lot better IMO, and Chambers is the best in the area.

[Sean Leary]

...

I have played it with a number of GCAers, some who think highly of it and some who do not, (which I understand and am not offended by at all). The intent of the club was to make it a golf only club for good players, and they succeeded in that. It certainly isn't for everyone, and that is OK.

Too bad we didn't get Doak's Wicked Pony for good players to compare it to.

Agreed.

I can almost guarantee that you aren't going to like Aldarra much, based upon your preferences

You mean to tell me you have ponds there?
I'll have to remember to bring my 9 wood for driving straight.

Actually just one. But there some environmental areas that act like ponds. And its an aerial course, which I am actually OK with because of the weather and conditions here in Seattle most of the year.

[Tom Johnston]

...

You just can't do that at Aldarra...Even when played from the proper tees for one's game, I find it a relentless examination and a course on which it is almost impossible for me to find a rhythm until it's far too late.  The rough can be punishingly thick (if not necesssarily deep), the fescues essentially unplayable and the playing corridors, particularly from #3-#6 seeming more narrow than they really are.

...

Mark's pictures so far seem to be capturing one element that stands out for me at Aldarra; the tiered and shelved nature of many of the greens.  This really is a dominant feature on the greensites there, and many of the shelves seem to propel and reject shots, as opposed to gathering them.  On #2, for example, it is difficult to grasp just how meaningful those shelves are in challenging the tee shots.  

Peter's comments are right on.  I've played Aldarra only once, but found that it did an excellent job finding and exposing every weakness in my game. 

-TJ

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 5: Par 4, 387 Yards

Playing #5 - The tee shot calls for a long, hard fade around a slight dogleg right. The fairway is very wide and the only trouble spot is a fairway bunker at the corner on the left side. A shot that ends up on the right side will have access to any flag on this green. This green has a false front and slopes from back to front.



No pictures from the championship, but it is 60 yards back and slightly to the right.  From the members tees, it is still a very intimidating tee shot with forest all the way up the right and no bail out left as a bunker guards that side of the fairway.  Is this bunker really necessary? I'll leave that commentary to those that know the course better, but from my one go-around I think the answer is no.




Tee shots that challenge the trees right are rewarded with a preferred angle into the green.  A false-front and fronting bunker requires shots to be well-struck and carried onto the green.




No good picture of the green, but IIRC one of the most subtle at Aldarra.





Hole 6: Par 3, 176 Yards

Playing #6 - Like the second hole, your tee-shot should be played towards the center of the green. There is a second tier on the upper left corner of this green that is well protected by a bunker left and slope behind the green.




Though it is about the same yardage as 2 on the scorecard, 6 plays in the opposite direction. 

The tee shot is more visually intimidating than it is difficult.  One of those holes that when you get to the green you say, "I didn't realize there was that much room up here."





The second subtle green in a row, with a shelf in the back-right portion of the green making for a very good tuckable 'Sunday pin position'.

[Sean Leary]

5 is an interesting hole. From the back tee it is the hardest hole on the course. From the human tees it is one of the easier ones.

Mark, the bunker works because it is where you want to hit it from the tee. There is a lot of room right that you can't see. Most players hit it at the bunker and cut it. Right pins are birdie pins, left are tricky. Pretty cool green.

6 is solid if unspectacular. Back left is filthy. Green site is too similar to the 9th hole for my liking and length is often too similar to number 2, as Mark mentioned.

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 7: Par 5, 503 Yards

Playing #7 - A reachable par 5, the tee-shot can be placed anywhere in the fairway. The fairway bunker on the left side can be carried by the longer hitters. Try to keep your approach shot short of the flag as this green has many breaks, but predominantly is sloped back right to front left. There are good up-and-down possibilities from the short-left bunker but it is very difficult to play from the short-right bunker.




Hole 7 is certainly a birdie, really the first one of the round.  The tee shot is plenty wide and is protected by a single bunker on the left.  Tee shots down the right are just fine (maybe preferred?) and the slope of the fairway will allow shots missed just right to kick into the fairway.




Decision time.  The green is well-protected with bunkers right, short and left.  The approach sets up very well for a draw and there is a small neck in the fairway that will allow a draw to run onto the green.




From 100 yards out the shot is as easy as you will find at Aldarra. Better make 4 here, cuz you probably aren't making one on the next hole.









Hole 8: Par 4, 456 Yards

Playing #8 - Depending on where the tee is located, longer hitters can cut the corner just left of the tree (A) but the prudent play would be towards the right-hand fairway bunker with a slight draw. The second shot is significantly downhill to a green that is very difficult to hold on the left side. This green has many slopes.




Left or right of the tree?  Length of hole + line of charm in full effect here as the golfer really wants to cutoff a little more than he probably should to leave a shorter approach into the green.




From the start of the fairway:






From about 180 yards out.  Balls can be run onto the right portion of the green, but a back-left pin (pictured) is deadly.  That fronting bunker is deep and there is not a whole lot of depth in the green in that area.  Can you say sucker pin?









Hole 9: Par 3, 137 Yards

Playing #9 - A long but narrow green is the feature on this short par 3. The front side of the green is flanked by bunkers left and right which make up-and-downs very difficult. There is a second tier that is not very deep and slopes significantly from right to left.




From the tee, I thought this hole was just a bit of filler, getting the player from 8 back to the clubhouse.  The cartpath is awful looking and the greensite unimpressive.  BUT...






When you get to the green you realize how interesting a hole it actually is.  I don't know the contours of the green well enough to comment properly, but they are numerous and severe and fun.  Don't miss in the wrong spot.

In particular, I noticed the contouring in the front portion of the green (and thought it was great).  The front of the green is very narrow, maybe 12 yards wide(?) and the at the edges of the green here will serve to funnel shots at the edge of the green toward the middle.  However, these same slopes mean that shots that miss just a bit too much left or right and find the bunker means that the recovery is basically impossible.

[Tim Book]

Really enjoyed my first visit to Seattle about a month ago.  Chambers twice and Bear Creek CC in Kirkland.  How would the balance of courses discussed compare with Bear Creek? 

[Sean Leary]

7 is start of the stretch where some birdies can be made. A good par 5, with a tricky green and a narrow opening to run it on. Plays longer than the yardage indicates much of the year and going for the green in two often times depends where the pin is. If its back, people often lay up as a putt or chip from the front of the green can be difficult to get close.

The pictures here don't really do 8 justice. The best par 4 on the course with a fabulous green. Birdie pin if it is in the bowl in front, difficult to par if it elsewhere. Most of the year we end up with a hanging long iron unless you kill driver

9 is a cool short hole. Its actually a walking path that you see which has a bridge the crosses over a salmon run. Short iron in hand, a from pin is a really tight shot. Middle is a birdie opportunity and back left (like 6) is pretty tough. I wish that he had made this green a different shape as it somewhat resembles 6. But a cute little hole as is.

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 10: Par 4, 357 Yards

Playing #10 - The fairway narrows at the 100 yard mark so the easiest play is just short of the fairway bunker (A). The green slopes from back-left to front-right with a large tier. Putting from below the tier is better than chipping from over this green.




It was mentioned earlier that the golf course plays very long and the holes that are short on the scorecard play much longer.  That is certainly the case here as this hole played uphill and into the wind and even though it is only 350ish yards, was a solid driver-8 iron hole.

A fairly simple tee shot to a wide fairway with a single bunker protecting the right and hazard down the left.  Take note of the pin location as this will dictate where you want to hit your tee shot.  I do not believe one can get to a left pin from the left side of the fairway.




The approach is very uphill, protected by a fronting bunker and a severe false-front that runs well into the green.




An Engh-esque shelf green.  The front and back portions of the green tilt from back-to-front but are tame by Aldarra standards, but there is a huge slope in the middle of the green making back-left pin positions extremely difficult to get to.







Hole 11: Par 5, 525 Yards

Playing #11 - The play on this three shot par 5 is to the right of the fairway bunker (A). A second shot played from the right rough is still better than playing from the deep bunker. The fairway is widest at 100 yards and the approach shot must be precise since this is the toughest green to putt on the course. Like many approaches here at Aldarra, keep your third shot below the hole.




The first of back-to-back parallel par-5s, 11 for me played straight uphill and into the wind.  By the end of the hole, I was cursing Mr. Fazio for designing a hole that would play so long.

A single well-placed bunker makes a simple tee shot interesting.  The fairway slopes right to left so there is no need to challenge the bunker, but still many players will be tempted to skirt the bunker to squeeze a couple of extra yards out of their tee shots.




Another single bunker protects the layup zone.  An approach from the right is preferred but this area is protected by the bunker.




The green tilts severely from back to front and shots landing just short will roll several yards back down a slope protecting the front of the green.








Hole 12: Par 5, 516 Yards

Playing #12 - Any tee shot in the fairway will give you a chance to reach the green in two on this downhill par 5. A second shot guided down the fairway will bounce and roll towards the green and open up the green for any short approach shots. Putting from well short of this green is not unheard of since the ball tends to funnel towards the center of the green.



After hitting three good shots and struggling to make 5 on 11, I was frustrated.  But, coming to the tee on 12, a downhill, downwind par 5 that is both shorter on the card and much shorter in practice than 11, my mood lightened.  This is a definite birdie hole before a stretch of holes from 13 to 16 where you better have your swing.

The tee shot is plenty wide and is perhaps the easiest on the course.  Other than a bit of pressure since you know this is a birdie hole, there is zero reason to miss this fairway.  Bombs away.




The approach from 225 yards out is straightforward as well.  Left pins are easily accessible and right pins are protecting by deep fronting bunkers (though not so deep that up and down is impossible).




From 100 yards out




Green from left

[rjsimper]

10 is one of the holes Sean was referring to when he said Fazio got the yardages wrong. The bunker right is like 270 off the members tees....and it's the most unreachable 270 I've ever seen....especially right (versus left, where you could pull it long/left)

What should be a challenging tee shot is really pretty mindless.

[Sean Leary]

10 is one of the holes Sean was referring to when he said Fazio got the yardages wrong. The bunker right is like 270 off the members tees....and it's the most unreachable 270 I've ever seen....especially right (versus left, where you could pull it long/left)

What should be a challenging tee shot is really pretty mindless.

Correct. Actually it is even less than that but it is uphill and not reachable by humans 99% of the time. I have hit it in there once in 500 ish rounds there and have seen one or 2 others in there. Did see one person hit it green, yes green high, but he was an animal (see Ballyneal thread).

[Sean Leary]

The back to back par 5's at 11 and 12 represent a significant flaw in the routing IMO. It was not land that the club originally owned but Faz told the club he wanted it. They are very different holes with some cool features (11 green is wild) and the views coming down 12 are spectacular on a clear day, but from a GCA point of view, its eh. The walk to 11 tee blows and so they leave carts for a 2.5 hole loop until after you hit your tee shot on 13 when you drop it off behind 10 green. I am not sure where he would have gone with the routing had that land not been purchased but I would love to know.

The lay up on 11 is the one really mindless shot on the whole course. A centerline hazard would add interest, but honestly, the course doesn't need to be any harder.

12 is a breather hole finishing off a (relative) breather stretch. There has been some talk about adding a water feature short right of the green but I am against it. The course doesn't need to be any harder, and it will just make people lay up left and not go for it. in a vacuum it might make the hole better in some people's eyes, but taking into account the entire course, it just doesn't make sense. Plus the course gets hard starting on 13 tee.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Sean can you let everyone understand the Palmer input on this course.

[Sean Leary]

Sean can you let everyone understand the Palmer input on this course.

Hi Tiger,

The course is built on what used to be the Boeing family farm (called Aldarra Farm). Apparently for years the Boeings wanted to build an estate course for the family but had issues with the permitting process. They even hired Palmer to do a routing. They gave up and sold the property, and subsequently the new owners hired Fazio to do the course. I had been told that Faz used Palmers routing, but when I asked those in the know, apparently that was not the case and the new group never had access to the Palmer routing and Fazio did it on his own (including the purchase of the land for 11 and 12).

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 13: Par 3, 230 Yards

Playing #13 - Although ‘The Gauntlet’ doesn't begin until #15, now would be a good time to be sharp with your play. This downhill par 3 has trouble on both the left and right sides. Shots landing short and right may receive a favorable bounce towards the green. There are deep bunkers left of this green and a large slope on the right.




One of the most amazing thing about playing the picturesque/intimidating/difficult 13th from 230 yards, is that if you turn around there is another tee 20+ yards behind you.

The contouring short/right of the green will assist the player by kicking the ball toward the green.  But, the close proximity of the trees both left and right add a serious intimidation factor.








Hole 14: Par 4, 411 Yards

Playing #14 - A decision needs to be made on this dogleg left par 4. A tee-shot carrying over the bunker with a draw (A) will get an extra 20-30 yards of roll but will leave an awkward second shot. A tee-shot played towards the right side (B) will leave a flatter lie, but a somewhat longer approach. The right side of the green slopes toward the left and the slope behind the green will put you in the hazard if you go over this green.




Hole 14 is the last of the dogleg left par-4s, but unlike the others, there is a reasonable opportunity to challenge the left side and gain some extra yards.






This may be my favorite approach on the golf course. The second is played from a hanging lie to a green that slopes right to left.  The oft (I presume) draw from the hanging lie causes the ball to go just a little longer than the player expects and a severe fallaway behind the green will catch this miss.  Lastly, a great tuckable pin back right is extremely difficult to access from anywhere but the left side of the fairway (ie tee shots that aggressively challenge the left/bunkers).

[Sean Leary]

13 is my favorite par 3 and 14 my favorite par 4 on the course. Tree clearing has opened up the right side so the preferred line is short right and bounce it on. Tricky, subtle green.

14 is fun because it is wide open and can just let it go, but best angle of attack depends on hole location. I would love to see the trees behind it removed for an infinity green effect, but its a great hole as is. Longer players should play the back tee to have them think about the bunker as a slight mishit puts you in there. Unless there is a back right pin, a birdie opportunity here.

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