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Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Is there anything positive about...
« on: August 15, 2011, 11:18:29 PM »
golf course rankings and the raters that submit those rankings?

I've been reading quite a few posts by the usual suspects about the hypocrisy, group think, inaccuracies, vagaries, financial motivation, etc., involved with raters and rankings.  Is there anything then that is positive about ranking golf courses?    
« Last Edit: August 15, 2011, 11:25:43 PM by Ben Sims »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: there anything positive about...
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2011, 11:22:39 PM »
Rankings enable golf course architects to become highly paid.  ;)

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there anything positive about...
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2011, 11:29:18 PM »
I don't know Ben. Do you think that when GW debuted their Modern List and Sand Hills was #1, that had any influence on the future of golf courses that were built afterwards?

How long do you think it would have taken SH to make the digest list if GW had not started their disruptive behavior?
« Last Edit: August 15, 2011, 11:34:06 PM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Brent Carlson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there anything positive about...
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2011, 11:37:42 PM »
golf course rankings and the raters that submit those rankings?

I've been reading quite a few posts by the usual suspects about the hypocrisy, group think, inaccuracies, vagaries, financial motivation, etc., involved with raters and rankings.  Is there anything then that is positive about ranking golf courses?    

Ben, yes absolutely.  It give your average golfer a starting point from which to play courses.  As much heat as the rankings take from GCAers, they are correct a vast majority of the time.  I have used them on golf trips, etc. 

The list that most matches my tastes however is below:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42368.0.html

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there anything positive about...
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2011, 10:22:54 AM »
golf course rankings and the raters that submit those rankings?

I've been reading quite a few posts by the usual suspects about the hypocrisy, group think, inaccuracies, vagaries, financial motivation, etc., involved with raters and rankings.  Is there anything then that is positive about ranking golf courses?    

Positive for the course?  Positive for the rater?  Positive for the magazine?  Positive for golf course architecture?

Mr. Doak says it is positive for architects.  I think that is a positive as well paid architects are probably good for golf course architecture.  (so long as they produce quality golf courses)
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Is there anything positive about...
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2011, 10:47:08 AM »
I don't know Ben. Do you think that when GW debuted their Modern List and Sand Hills was #1, that had any influence on the future of golf courses that were built afterwards?

How long do you think it would have taken SH to make the digest list if GW had not started their disruptive behavior?


Adam:  Give me a break.  Every ranking was going to have Sand Hills near the top, although each of them shows a bit of wariness in putting a new course up in the top ten -- that part takes a bit of reflection.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there anything positive about...
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2011, 11:10:09 AM »
Ben,
Have you ever seen the Steakhouse rankings in the "in flight" airline magazines?  Golf rankings are in the same boat.  They allow magazines to sell advertising and to create a reason for people to buy their magazine.  These ratings are really not for golfers as much as they are for promoting RE developments which HAD the dollars to spend on advertising.  I have a completely different take on the individual rater business. When the barrier to entry is so low why would anyone really value the opinion?  It's all there as a means of justification for the final ratings.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Anthony Gray

Re: Is there anything positive about...
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2011, 11:14:19 AM »


  The raters do gain access I'm told.

  Anthony


John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there anything positive about...
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2011, 11:17:35 AM »
I'm on a two day golf trip at fantastic very private golf courses that would not have been possible if rankings did not exist. Rankings are to me like roaches are to the Orkin man, they make us relevant.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there anything positive about...
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2011, 11:21:57 AM »
Ben,

Many of us enjoy making lists.  Yes, they are far from perfect.  Yes,  I've spent good money on overpriced, overhyped courses.  But I've also found some great courses old & new that I might not have otherwise and learned a lot in the process.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Is there anything positive about...
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2011, 11:24:16 AM »
Good question, Ben. Maybe if magazine rankings didn't exist:
* Individual accounts such as Tom Doak's Confidential Guide wouldn't be crowded out or would have a better chance to find a readership;
* There would be more room for qualitative descriptions such as TCG rather than the magazines' reductive single numbers.

Adam, Doak put SH in the Gourmet's Choice before it even was completed. That long-form praise of the course not only is my first but remains the strongest impression for me.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there anything positive about... New
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2011, 12:14:18 PM »
Mark -

As you know, there was a time when course ratings were rare. (When they did sometimes appear back in the day, they were vehemently dismissed as a screwed up way of thinking about golf courses. I'm thinking of the Golden Age.) Notwithstanding that, people and magazines still somehow figured out which were the best courses. That's because during that long ago dystopia there were far more and far better magazine and book narratives on the specific pros and cons of individual golf courses. That's how most people learned about good courses. That led, in turn, to architects and commentators actually debating - out in the open in the mass media - different approaches to golf architecture. It was fascinating stuff. There is still much to be learned from those old discussions.

All of that is now gone from the golf mass media. I'd guess that the rise of course ratings had something to do with snuffing it out. Instead of talking about the merits of a course, our attention has shifted to where the course ranks. Which is all too often a way to express subjective preferences without having to justify those preferences.

I've always thought course ratings were pretty silly but basically innocuous, at least as conducted in modern golf mags. Now I'm not so sure about the innocuous part. I'm starting to wonder if ratings have a down side. They might be destructive of useful architectural debate.

Bob

P.S. A related thought is that the popularity of this website is to some extent attributable to the abandoment by the the major golf mags of discussions of golf architecture. We come here to get those sorts of discussions/debates, cuz you ain't going to find them in GD or Golf and certainly not on TV.





 
« Last Edit: August 16, 2011, 02:22:47 PM by BCrosby »

Anthony Gray

Re: Is there anything positive about...
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2011, 12:32:56 PM »


  Ratings do provoke interest. I was in Thailand and wonderd if I could play a top course so I flew to New Zealand to check out Cape Kidnappers. If it was not in the top 100 I would not have done that.

  Anthony


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