[Peter Pallotta]

I think I've made up my mind.  If I had to choose, I'd take a golf course with 3 truly great golf holes over one that has 18 very good holes (and no weak/breather holes).  The great golf hole transmutes and re-frames all that has come before it, and casts a glowing lingering light on all that comes afterwards.  The great golf holes justify/give purpose and meaning to the entire routing, and to the art-craft of golf course design itself.  About 2/3 of the way into his 1945 recording of Salt Peanuts (with Charlie Parker), Dizzy Gillespie plays a solo (and specifically an introductory phrase) that is so stunningly good, such a remarkable feat of technical mastery and creative ingenuity, that for me it transmutes and reframes all that has come before (a very good and charming riff-tune) into a foundational document, a living testament to be-bop.  The great solo is the purpose/meaning of the recording, as the great golf hole is the purpose/meaning of the golf course.

Peter      

[Tom_Doak]

Peter:

The jazz part is lost on me, but the great golf holes are not.

I agree with you completely, I'd rather play a course with some great holes and a couple of duds, than one with a bunch of good but unmemorable holes.  Of course, that's partly professional interest ... seeing a course where an architect doesn't make any mistakes is just a waste of time for me.

[Peter Pallotta]

Tom - on a more personal level, have you always felt that way? I haven't read your first book, but back then were you already inclined to reward courses for their few great holes more than to penalize them for their few duds?  Or to put it another way: did a course with 18 good but unmemorable holes leave you as cold back then as they do now?

Peter

[Chris Shaida]

I think I agree   I'm old and not a very good golfer so take all of this with a grain of salt but...it's increasingly clear to me that there are three things that matter to me (and that make golf fascinating to me): stories, memory and anticipation.  The three are intertwined (and your earlier thread about 'home' courses made me think hard about this as well) but it's increasingly clear to me that a course is NOT (for me) a mathematical test but rather is a structure for hearing/telling stories, for storing memories and then for anticipating (since now is not then) something new. 

btw, "I think I've made up my mind.' is fantastic, in a Derridean way, and has got to be in the running for most economical/fecund gca sentence of the year!

[Peter Pallotta]

Chris - thank you, but your thought about golf courses being "structures for hearing/telling stories, for storing memories, and then for anticipating (since now is not then) something new" trumps most of what I've ever read here, and certainly anything I've ever written. That was a wonderful sentence!  By the way, I'm an old bad golfer too!!

Peter

[Chris Shaida]

Peter - well us old and bad golf golfers have to  stick together -- we are teh future of golf!

and the de-valuing and mi-understanding of 'stories' is one of the saddest features of 'our' age--though there is some hope that our kids will fix that (?!) 

[Ally Mcintosh]

Peter,

I agree with your premise regarding jazz (and music in general) but I'm not so sure I agree regarding golf courses.

There are plenty of great holes around the world but I spend my time playing eighteen in one go (usually) and I prefer the experience to flow and be cohesive.

When routing a course, if you get hung up on one or two potentially great holes than I think it can narrow your vision. Whilst if you concentrate on the whole, then it is more than likely that one or two great holes will result in any case.

[Colin Macqueen]

Ally,
You say in response to Peter "....one or two potentially great holes then I think it can narrow your vision."
Now I do believe that P.P. was the chap who gave birth to the thread "...Or Narrowing Your Focus" so he is nothing if not consistent!

Cheers Colin

[Michael Goldstein]

Peter, great thread and I agree. 

Playing a course with truly great holes is so so much better than just playing a solid course.  It is exactly why I switch off every time a course is ranked against another on a 'match play' format. 

I think a good course is far more than 18 great golf holes.  It is about the flow.  The routing.  The great moments. And the way it plays with your mind throughout the round. 

I've played RM East the last two days and whilst it clearly has its flaws it also has the touches of charlie-parker-class (like the 5th green) that my words will not do justice to.     

[Kevin Pallier]

I thought Dizzy Gillespie was an Australian cricketer ?

[Anthony Gray]

  I think every great golf hole has at least one memorable feature and a great course is made up of memorable holes. So give me 3 memorables over 18 non.

  Anthony

[Peter Pallotta]

Anthony - I thought you were going to say Cruden Bay 

Ally - that's the other side of the argument, yes.  But I'm thinking that, in the overall routing and over 18 holes, it is worth 'compromising' a few holes (and produce 'breather' holes) in order to achieve a few great ones.

Colin - yes, I'm nothing if not consistent - the hobgoblin of little minds!

Peter

[SL_Solow]

Peter,  You knew I couldn't stay away from a jazz analogy.  I must confess that I am still thinking about this one.  I recognize your point, an outstanding moment or 2 in a mundane recording can elevate it immensely.  I immediately thought of Lester's lead in on Billie's Me Myself and I.   But there are other recordings where the ensemble playing is so good and the arrangements are so interesting that they are truly interesting despite the lack of any virtuoso solos.  A lot of the Big Band era classics qualify.  So I am still considering which I prefer.  The same goes rof courses.  While a spectacular hole or 3 raises a course in my estimation, a consistent course without weak holes that is well routed must also be given its due.

By the way; it is only a FOOLISH consistency that is the hobgoblin of little minds.  You can decide whether you qualify.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ally - that's the other side of the argument, yes.  But I'm thinking that, in the overall routing and over 18 holes, it is worth 'compromising' a few holes (and produce 'breather' holes) in order to achieve a few great ones.

Peter, I wouldn't mind breather holes, not at all.

But when the search for including a great hole results in holes that seem forced or just do not work, then I'd rather the cohesive whole. Also, it's worth remembering that great holes on paper don't necessarily end up that way in the ground... and vice versa...

Depends if you just want 18 "good" holes. I'm talking about an 18 where excellence and greatness continually shines through in many features... But perhaps just not with three all-world holes....

[Anthony Gray]

  Spyglass

[Jud_T]

Peter,

I prefer the Complete Dean Benedetti recordings to Parker with Strings.  I also prefer the early danceable Ellington and Basie to any of the postwar stuff.  Cecil Taylor was one of the best concerts I've ever seen.  You can infer the rest about my GCA preferences...

[Tony_Muldoon]

“Salt Peanuts, Salt....PEAnuts”   (at least that’s how I recall it).


I’m wavering all over the place on this one seeing something I like in all the arguments presented so far; discounting only Tom’s professional interests as largely irrelevant to my personal needs.


It’s when I think of real golf courses, or music or meals that I’m troubled to come up with examples.  If we stay with the 3/18th or 1/6th example. On how many albums have  a band knocked out one world class track and then 5 fillers?  Can anyone name me a restaurant where if I eat lunch and dinner 5 courses will be nutritious and enjoyable, but one will make me want to take all my friends there?  More likely if there’s a stand out part, each track/dish will have been finely crafted and offer something to the discerning and open customer.  I think it’s exceedingly rare for good skilled craftsmen to rise above themselves and them retreat back to what they do very competently.  More likely someone capable of true excellence will produce a balanced and interesting meal.


 Sorry Peter, for me this argument fails the real world test. But perhaps I’m not getting something?


Anyone want to name a course where the 3/18th rule applies?

[Jim_Kennedy]

PP,

There is a quote, variously attributed to Jones, Hogan and Nicklaus, that goes something like: "If I hit 4 perfect shots in a round then no one is going to to beat me that day".

To me that translates into their saying that their misses will be very good on a day when perfection finds its way into the round a few times.

I tend to believe the same thing happens in architecture, the 'misses' on a course with a few 'perfect' holes are going to be good, which makes me think that the course with a few outstanding holes will most likely be 'better' than the course with 18 good/very good ones.

[Phil McDade]

Anyone want to name a course where the 3/18th rule applies?

This is a candidate:

http://www.royaltarlair.co.uk/

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks, gents - your posts turned this into a really good thread.  Ally, SL, Jud, Tony, all - I do see the other side of the discussion.  I won't argue against it. But SL's mention of the big bands is even a better analogy than the one I used:  listen to a good Benny Goodman tune, especially a live recording of the whole big band: the arrangement is good but nothing to write home about, the ensemble work is tight and very good but nothing you've not heard from many other bands....and then Benny comes in with a searing, driving, joyously flamboyant solo that cuts through everything else and raises the temperature of the band and of the room and lights it up -- giving the whole enterprise a new purpose.

Anyway, thanks again - interesting thoughts. 

Peter

[JMEvensky]

Thanks, gents - your posts turned this into a really good thread.  Ally, SL, Jud, Tony, all - I do see the other side of the discussion.  I won't argue against it. But SL's mention of the big bands is even a better analogy than the one I used:  listen to a good Benny Goodman tune, especially a live recording of the whole big band: the arrangement is good but nothing to write home about, the ensemble work is tight and very good but nothing you've not heard from many other bands....and then Benny comes in with a searing, driving, joyously flamboyant solo that cuts through everything else and raises the temperature of the band and of the room and lights it up -- giving the whole enterprise a new purpose.

Anyway, thanks again - interesting thoughts. 

Peter

Way to go Peter--you just gave me an excuse to listen to the single greatest live recording ever made.Sing,Sing,Sing from the Carnegie Hall concert.

[Sean_A]

It would help me if I knew what courses we are talking about in terms of three great holes and a few duds.  My immediate thought is North Berwick, although there could be argument over the the three great holes.

My issue with the "Great Hole Theory" is that somehow some other courses strike me as a better overall course.  I am always taken back to a course like Pennard.  To some, it has no great holes, to others it may have as many as 7 or 8.  I lean much more toward 7 or 8, but I can can readily see the argument for overkill of greatness on one course or perhaps too much of a certain kind of greatnesss on one course.  Anyway, I still believe greatness is a feeling pouring into belief that has no real definition.  Greatness just is.

Ciao

[George Pazin]

PP,

There is a quote, variously attributed to Jones, Hogan and Nicklaus, that goes something like: "If I hit 4 perfect shots in a round then no one is going to to beat me that day".

To me that translates into their saying that their misses will be very good on a day when perfection finds its way into the round a few times.

I tend to believe the same thing happens in architecture, the 'misses' on a course with a few 'perfect' holes are going to be good, which makes me think that the course with a few outstanding holes will most likely be 'better' than the course with 18 good/very good ones.

I think I agree   I'm old and not a very good golfer so take all of this with a grain of salt but...it's increasingly clear to me that there are three things that matter to me (and that make golf fascinating to me): stories, memory and anticipation.  The three are intertwined (and your earlier thread about 'home' courses made me think hard about this as well) but it's increasingly clear to me that a course is NOT (for me) a mathematical test but rather is a structure for hearing/telling stories, for storing memories and then for anticipating (since now is not then) something new. 

btw, "I think I've made up my mind.' is fantastic, in a Derridean way, and has got to be in the running for most economical/fecund gca sentence of the year!

Two of the deepest thoughts I've ever read on here. Well done, Jim and Chris.

Another great thread, Peter.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Peter I just wanted to say I really enjoy it when you post one of your....is tangential the right word....thoughtful posts.  They make me stop and think and I can relate in some way to all of them.  Making me stop and think; it doesn’t get better than that.


I like to believe you are recording them all in a moleskin notebook, written in longhand using an old ink Schaefer.  I bet the colour of the ink changes as the mood takes you.  You try them out on GCA before refining them.  I just hope you publish a few facsimile copies before I’m too old to still hit the bloody thing.  “Peter Pallotta’s Golfing Chapbook” engraved on the spine.  Put me down for two copies and I’ve also sorted my brother’s Christmas present.

Thanks.

[Charlie Goerges]

Peter I just wanted to say I really enjoy it when you post one of your....is tangential the right word....thoughtful posts.  They make me stop and think and I can relate in some way to all of them.  Making me stop and think; it doesn’t get better than that.


I like to believe you are recording them all in a moleskin notebook, written in longhand using an old ink Schaefer.  I bet the colour of the ink changes as the mood takes you.  You try them out on GCA before refining them.  I just hope you publish a few facsimile copies before I’m too old to still hit the bloody thing.  “Peter Pallotta’s Golfing Chapbook” engraved on the spine.  Put me down for two copies and I’ve also sorted my brother’s Christmas present.

Thanks.

How you say...+1000.

Do what he says Peter or this time we really are getting out the torches and pitchforks and coming for you.

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