PGA club pros in PGA Champ

[Dean Stokes]

Mike Small is the only "club pro" to make the cut in this championship......congratulations. But please..........he has played full time on PGA tour.....played 4 tour events this year......has won 2 nationwide events in the past......appears to be a full time coach at a college for a golf team. This is no "club pro" and should not be held to be holding the standards of a club pro........when was the last time he did inventory for 12 hours at the end of each month.......how many mem/guests has he run lately? Now if I am wrong I will be the first to apologize but I have been a club pro and know hundreds of club pros and that is not a club pro resume!

[JESII]

Dean,

What on earth could Mike have done to you to warrant this thread?

[K. Krahenbuhl]

Who knew past success disqualified you?  Mike is a great guy and I wish him the best of luck in today's final round.

[Dean Stokes]

I am not having a go at Mike.....I don't know Mike.....I am just voicing an opinion that to call Mike a "club pro" may be slightly misleading. No? I was a club pro and played many club pro events where guys won who have barely done an hour in a golf shop.....mine is merely an observation that this could be the case here for people who are not aware......each year the PGA of America hold these guys as examples of "club pros" and I generally find it to be misleading to the general public. Thanks.

[Dean Stokes]

You guys seem to be taking this the wrong way.....I am not knocking Mike Small. How many club pros that you know who do 60 hours a week in the shop have played 4 tour events this year? That's all I'm saying.

[Adrian_Stiff]

In Europe it does not mean Club Pro's, it more represents professional golfers taht compete regionally or have become PGA qualified, the restriction is not that they are the head professional at a club, they could be young assistants, work at range or just teach...is the different in the USA? Our own Open has several rounds of qualification wherby as long as you are a pro you can enter.

[JESII]

Dean,

How many of those 60 hour guys wouldn't trade with Mike Small?

[Dean Stokes]

Dean,

How many of those 60 hour guys wouldn't trade with Mike Small?

Everyone of them? But they cannot because they are running the mixed foursomes event this morning at their club on the back end of the club championship Thursday/Friday........man I bet they wish they just had time to hit some balls these days!

[JR Potts]

How many weekends do the club pros have to shuttle and baby sit six 18-22 year old kids all over the country?  How many recruiting trips do club pros have to take?  How many kids athletic, personal and academic success is directly pinned to a club pro?  You're right, he's probably not a "club pro" under the truist sense of the word, but to suggest his job is any easier than the average club pro and somehow gives him an unfair advantage is discounting reality and quite frankly, sounds like sour grapes.

And to answer your question - very few have played 4 tour events...mostly because they're not eligible and here's the biggest factor....not good enough and never will be or would be good enough.

[SL_Solow]

The reason Mike has played in those events is that one of the rewards for winning the National Club Pro Championship is an exemption into several tour events.  Mike won last year aand used some of those exemptions.  I know Mike pretty well.  He currently plays several local tourneys against club pros and local amateurs like the Illinois Open and the Illinois PGA.  He doesn't play all that much between coaching, running junior camps, recruiting, trying to keep his players eligible etc.  One of the great guys.  I understand your point but Mike is no longer a tournament player.  If you knew him, you would be delighted for him to be held out as an example of what a PGA professional should be.  Incidentally, the guys in the Illinois section, many of whom I know, feel the same way.

[M. Shea Sweeney]

Dean-

You're right, the title "Club Pro" is a bit misleading. He is a PGA Professional. As you know PGA professionals where many hats, and I am sure Mike, as the Head Coach of a top college team, has more important things that take up his time than working 60 hours a week in a golf shop, which at his age makes it even more impressive that he continues to play big time golf.

I don't know Mike Small, but it appears Mike Small is a great PGA Professional. If you can't see that, it's not your fault, you are just uninformed.

Respectfully,

Mike Sweeney

[Dean Stokes]

Again guys, this was nothing to do with Mike Small, who I don't know and who I congratulate on his performance. This is really about the humor I find every year in the PGA portraying the 25 guys who make it to this championship as your standard golf club/shop professional. Your average club pro doesnt even have the time to play enough to keep their game in shape to qualify for the national club pro championship! Good luck to these guys and enjoy your championship....I just find it slightly misleading to the tv viewers who presume these guys will be ordering footjoys tomorrow morning....lol. That's all. I didn't want an argument this fine Sunday am....enjoy the golf today......good luck Mr. Small.

[Phil McDade]

To be fair to Dean, this kind of issue has been raised in a similar fashion for competitions like the USGA's Mid-Am championships, in which former pros "regain" their amateur status after a period of time. I think there are some gray areas.

Maybe Tiger can get some tips from Mr. Small.

[Dean Stokes]

To be fair to Dean, this kind of issue has been raised in a similar fashion for competitions like the USGA's Mid-Am championships, in which former pros "regain" their amateur status after a period of time. I think there are some gray areas.

Maybe Tiger can get some tips from Mr. Small.

Lol.....Mr Small has probably played more golf than Tiger this year!

[Cory Lewis]

Being a club professional that works alot I would tend to agree with Dean.  In my experience the guys that play well in the National and qualify for the PGA are mostly teaching pros, including this year's winner David Hutsell, who is a teaching pro at Elkridge in Maryland.  Teaching pros have a bit more flexibility in their schedules that allows them to practice and play more. 

One of my pet peeves has always been that the PGA never really investigated the claims of "Assistant Professionals"  The last time I played in the Assistant's Championship, the guy that won was a mini-tour player who was an "Assistant" at a teaching academy.  Seriously?  That's a joke, they should't let mini tour guys or teaching pros play in the Assistant's Championship.

[Dean Stokes]

Being a club professional that works alot I would tend to agree with Dean.  In my experience the guys that play well in the National and qualify for the PGA are mostly teaching pros, including this year's winner David Hutsell, who is a teaching pro at Elkridge in Maryland.  Teaching pros have a bit more flexibility in their schedules that allows them to practice and play more. 

One of my pet peeves has always been that the PGA never really investigated the claims of "Assistant Professionals"  The last time I played in the Assistant's Championship, the guy that won was a mini-tour player who was an "Assistant" at a teaching academy.  Seriously?  That's a joke, they should't let mini tour guys or teaching pros play in the Assistant's Championship.

Hallalujah!

[jeffwarne]

Dean, Cory,
With all due respect, and as someone who worked in the bagroom, then pro shop, then teaching (as well as a combination of all of the above) 60+ hours per week for many years ,us "PGA professionals" are supposed to be golfers, and once upon a time we and our brethren were players who ran pro shops at clubs in the off touring season-but above all were golfers and teachers
.
Rather than bemoaning our fate, many of us have structured our jobs and lives and games to a point where we can practice and play.
Some, due to their strengths as players, will never have to come through the ranks as I and many others did.
Those are the kind of players who most often perform well in the Club Pro series and National Club Pro.
That's life-and congrats to them for having and maintaining a great game.

Are you really serious that a teaching pro shouldn't play in the assistants championship?
What should they call it?---the shirt folders open and players should evidence their lack of tan to be eligible?

The weakness of the PGA ranks currently is all the young kids graduating from college PGM programs unable to break 80 and somehow being granted Class A status and willing to take lowball jobs from the so called management companies.
Those kids will never sniff a golf club, but they fold a mean shirt and look good with their top button buttoned and their suit on.

I would argue that if you don't play golf at least 2 days a week you shouldn't even be a PGA member.
Obviously that's currently impossible the way most jobs are structured, but that's a failing of us as golf pros and our PGA leaders to allow it to get to this.
Who really got into the business to fold shirts and run ladies Day??
rather than chastise those who don't have to do this, we should glorify them, and if we're unhappy with our lack of play-bust our butts to emulate them.

Sure the sytem isn't perfect and perhaps a college coach isn't exactly typical, but he certainly shouldn't really be an amateur either.
The tournament is not set up to identify your "average Club Pro"
We've got enough silly awards such as "Merchandiser of the Year " (in three categories no less-public, private, and resort) which the typical PGA pro can win.

[John_Conley]

Dean, the PGA of America has redefined things to represent the many different paths pursued by its members.  If your gripe is that the 25 guys in the field are lumped into a category of "club pros", it seems to be the fault of the broadcasters and not PGA of America.

Mike Small is a colllege coach.  Other guys are instructors.  Some competitive players are actually working at a golf retailer.  Not all jobs are the same and the PGA of America is cognizant of that.

[Kalen Braley]

I don't see why peeps are laying into Dean here.

I think all he was really trying to say is "club pros" come in all shapes, sizes, and colors when it comes to schedule, duties, free time, practice time etc, etc. So to lump all them in together into one group is a gross mis-characterization of which I would agree.

I didn't see anything where he was trying to disparage the guy, only trying to more accurately portray that this guy was more likely to be found on the golf course than behind the counter.

Preach on brother!! 

[Cory Lewis]

Are you really serious that a teaching pro shouldn't play in the assistants championship?

Yes I am because I know several teaching pros that work maybe 20 hours a week, there is no Assistant in existence that can get away with working that few hours.

The weakness of the PGA ranks currently is all the young kids graduating from college PGM programs unable to break 80 and somehow being granted Class A status and willing to take lowball jobs from the so called management companies.
Those kids will never sniff a golf club, but they fold a mean shirt and look good with their top button buttoned and their suit on.

I agree, in fact I would be in favor of all Class A's being required to pass a playing test every 5 years, it's disgraceful when a guy can't break 80 and you only have to prove you can play one time.

I would argue that if you don't play golf at least 2 days a week you shouldn't even be a PGA member.

Again, I agree.  I have always made it a priority to play, but everywhere I go I find that I’m the exception, not the rule.  After folding shirts and running ladies day these guys just don’t want to play, but like you said, in the current environment, where we have to do everything it’s hard for some of these guys to remember why they became a pro.

Sure the system isn't perfect and perhaps a college coach isn't exactly typical, but he certainly shouldn't really be an amateur either.
The tournament is not set up to identify your "average Club Pro"

I will give the PGA credit in that they now call it “The PGA Professional National Championship”  instead of the CPC like we all used to call it.

[Dean Stokes]

I don't see why peeps are laying into Dean here.

I think all he was really trying to say is "club pros" come in all shapes, sizes, and colors when it comes to schedule, duties, free time, practice time etc, etc. So to lump all them in together into one group is a gross mis-characterization of which I would agree.

I didn't see anything where he was trying to disparage the guy, only trying to more accurately portray that this guy was more likely to be found on the golf course than behind the counter.

Preach on brother!! 

Agreed. I got out of the golf industry precisely because of a number of reasons Jeff Warne mentions. Being a club pro to me meant working some shop hours, playing golf with members, teaching and preparing for my tournaments. How wrong I was. To play golf at the level these "club pros" are playing at in this event I find hard to believe you could work long hours at a golf club. I merely believe the PGA should make this clear instead of portraying these great golfers as "club pros". Cory pointed out the assistants champion who is a full time mini tour player.....is that not a grey area in the system? I have known teaching pros who don't teach but hang their hats at a club and play full time golf and end up winning club pro events. Not much admirable in that as far as I'm concerned and a flaw in the PGA system. I'm starting to forget why I started this thread!!!!!! Lol.

[Kalen Braley]

I don't see why peeps are laying into Dean here.

I think all he was really trying to say is "club pros" come in all shapes, sizes, and colors when it comes to schedule, duties, free time, practice time etc, etc. So to lump all them in together into one group is a gross mis-characterization of which I would agree.

I didn't see anything where he was trying to disparage the guy, only trying to more accurately portray that this guy was more likely to be found on the golf course than behind the counter.

Preach on brother!! 

Agreed. I got out of the golf industry precisely because of a number of reasons Jeff Warne mentions. Being a club pro to me meant working some shop hours, playing golf with members, teaching and preparing for my tournaments. How wrong I was. To play golf at the level these "club pros" are playing at in this event I find hard to believe you could work long hours at a golf club. I merely believe the PGA should make this clear instead of portraying these great golfers as "club pros". Cory pointed out the assistants champion who is a full time mini tour player.....is that not a grey area in the system? I have known teaching pros who don't teach but hang their hats at a club and play full time golf and end up winning club pro events. Not much admirable in that as far as I'm concerned and a flaw in the PGA system. I'm starting to forget why I started this thread!!!!!! Lol.

I think Phil M. could easily devote/fit in 5 hrs per week to giving lessons at his local club in San Diego.

Then he'd be the best "club pro" the world has ever known! 

[jeffwarne]

Are you really serious that a teaching pro shouldn't play in the assistants championship?

Yes I am because I know several teaching pros that work maybe 20 hours a week, there is no Assistant in existence that can get away with working that few hours.

The weakness of the PGA ranks currently is all the young kids graduating from college PGM programs unable to break 80 and somehow being granted Class A status and willing to take lowball jobs from the so called management companies.
Those kids will never sniff a golf club, but they fold a mean shirt and look good with their top button buttoned and their suit on.

I agree, in fact I would be in favor of all Class A's being required to pass a playing test every 5 years, it's disgraceful when a guy can't break 80 and you only have to prove you can play one time.

I would argue that if you don't play golf at least 2 days a week you shouldn't even be a PGA member.

Again, I agree.  I have always made it a priority to play, but everywhere I go I find that I’m the exception, not the rule.  After folding shirts and running ladies day these guys just don’t want to play, but like you said, in the current environment, where we have to do everything it’s hard for some of these guys to remember why they became a pro.

Sure the system isn't perfect and perhaps a college coach isn't exactly typical, but he certainly shouldn't really be an amateur either.
The tournament is not set up to identify your "average Club Pro"

I will give the PGA credit in that they now call it “The PGA Professional National Championship”  instead of the CPC like we all used to call it.

Looks like Cory Dean and I agree

The PGA does have guidelines about the definition of being employed and eligible for events.
Guys that cheat on that are the same as those who cheat on anything.


Kalen,
give Phil a couple of weeks with the ladies and I'd kick his ass

[Wade Whitehead]

Dean:

I have great respect for Mike Small.  He's a PGA member and is entitled to play to qualify for the event.  Whatever the announcers decide to say is beyond his control.

The situation you're describing is nothing compared to the validity of the field at the US Public Links Championship.

WW

[Dean Stokes]

Dean:

I have great respect for Mike Small.  He's a PGA member and is entitled to play to qualify for the event.  Whatever the announcers decide to say is beyond his control.

The situation you're describing is nothing compared to the validity of the field at the US Public Links Championship.

WW

I cannot comment on the us publinx as I don't know what you mean. I don't know Mike but would most likely have complete respect and admiration for the man. If you read through the entire thread you will learn that it is not about Mike but more about the PGA of America and the grey areas in the rules that alllow for "players", not club pros to take advantage of these rules. I was under the impression you had to be a club professional and work a certain amount of hours at that club to qualify as a PGA professional.....that is maybe not the case.