Tobacco Road pictures are added...

[Ran Morrissett]

...to its course profile, bringing the total to 18 pics.

Tobacco Road is as easy to photograph as any of the 140 courses that are profiled on the site. It has scale, sweeping vistas, texture, and dramatic/diverse features. Half of the pictures were taken in the dead of winter and the other half on a mild autumn day and yet it is tough to tell which are which (save for the stocking hats!).

Also, the more I play it, the more I appreciate its subtler charms.

We just played the Morrissett Cup over the New Year break and Bill and I managed to birdie the last three holes to erase our opponent's dormie position. On 16 and 17, I and then Bill respectively used the surrounding slopes from 20 and 30 feet away to work the ball in tight to the hole locations. Seeing Bill's wedge shot slowly roll back off the back bank of the green and trickle toward the hole was a thing of great beauty  

As Turboe makes the point with Strantz's new Bulls Bay, Tobacco Road is a course where the golfer can't help but appreciate the variety of options and challenges. Plus, the different hole locations dramatically change how many of the holes play, so you never tire of playing the course.

Cheers,

[RJ_Daley]

Ran, darn good pictures.  I assume you took them.  What camera do you use, and do you have any special techniques, settings, or rules of thumb?

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

This is one golf course I wish I have played. Every time I see photos of it I must say it looks unbelievably good -- both from aesthetics and just wild fun and interesting aspect. But it also seems to draw some of the strongest criticism of any modern course -- many seem to hate it and look at at it as a joke. I'd love to find out for myself. Does it cater more to match play and away from the typical American medal play mentality? Does it require repeated play to understand its strategies and acquire a taste for its quirkiness? I'm reminded of MacKenzie wondering what was wrong with Cypress Point when it recieved little or no criticism.

[George Pazin]

As a corollary to Tom MacWood's statements, this is one of the few courses discussed on this site that I have played. I enjoyed it a great deal, & would probably enjoy it more with repeat play. My only real criticism is that I think too many of the greens are set somewhat perpendicular to play - i.e. extremely wide, but very shallow. The one notable exception is #9, which has the narrowest green I've ever seen, flanked on the right side by virtual no man's land. I'd like to see a little more variety is this aspect of the course.

Also, I played the course with my then girlfriend(now wife:)) & there are serious tree issues from the forward most tees. Both 3 & 4 have tee shots encumbered by trees - overhead on #3 & directly in front of the #4 tee. The one on #4 has to be seen to be believed.

[redanman (Guest)]

Not without its problems, this is one fine golf course with great features well captured in these nice photos.  This course did not disappoint me.  Only one or two things struck me as a little ovredone such as the 12th? greensite (Par 5) for example. A redhead for sure!

[redanman (Guest)]

BTW, the new pictures suggest correction of the above mentined problem green.  A totally blind approach shot where you can't find your ball in love grass is a bit silly.

[GeoffreyC]

I will add to this that I was on of those with strong criticisims of this course.  I will not retype them all with the hopes that we can get all the archived material back on the site sometime soon.

I will say that TR is a course that was NOT designed for all of the weather conditions seen in the Pinehurst area.  Several holes are virtually or are unplayable in winds above 20 mph!

[Tim_Weiman]

Tom MacWood:

Tobacco Road was one of those projects I took a great deal of interest in.  But, when members of the discussion group got together there a few years back we were a bit disappointed and couldn't wait to go play some more Ross stuff.

Tobacco Road reminds me of the comparison Tom Doak made of the 17th holes at PGA West and the TPC at Sawgrass: if you've played Royal New Kent you might find Tobacco Road a bit repetitive.

Still, I'd like to go back and see what my impressions would be on a second visit.  Maybe if I put thoughts of RNK aside, I'd enjoy it more.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Regarding TR in windy conditions, you can say the same thing about Pine Valley.  Both courses have numerous and long forced carries both off the tee and into greens, negating running the ball in.  

Regarding repetitiveness, even you (Tim W) talk about how if one archtitect does it, it's genius (Raynor et al.), but if another does it, it's repetitive (Fazio or Strantz).  How many 18th holes at Sawgrass has Pete Dye done since then?  Many.  Or 9 and 18 parallel on opposite sides of the lake?

How about Raynor copying holes to all his courses?

People complain here that Fazio courses look the same.

Strantz courses have bigness and boldness to them, so his courses will appear similar in style.  But I'd think True Blue would look more like TR than RNK,  given all the sandy waste areas at each one.  The thing about Strantz courses is that there usually are so many strategic options compared to other architects.  I like his use of wide fairways, where one side vs. the other is preferred. I don't like #17 at TR, though.  His courses leave impressions, whether they be too hard, too bold, fun, or whatever.  At least they're not boring.

[Craig Van Egmond]

I personally enjoyed playing Tobacco Road, there were a couple of holes (like the 12th) that I did not like, but the course is fun and falls into that looks harder than it plays catagory. Did I prefer Mid-Pines and Pine Needles?  Yes, but I think there is plenty of room for the Tobacco Roads of the world, even if it is a little over the top.

I would play it again if I had the spare time.

[GeoffreyC]

Boy I really don't want to go through this again but tell me how to play #15 at TR downwind 20 mph or greater for example.  This has NOTHING to do with forced carries.

Pine Valley always gives you alternate routes so that's a bad comparison.  Bethpage Black has some worse forced carries then Pine Valley.

[Scott_Burroughs]

#15 at TR hard downwind.  If the pin is on the right side of the green (where it is most of the time), a drive in the left side of the fairway leaves an open pitch that can be landed short and run on.  If the pin is anywhere else on the green, then a wedge (which is usually what it will be due to how short the hole is) should create enough spin to keep it on the green.  

Depending on when you last played TR, the approach on left side of #15 has been softened, where the cliff has been lowered considerably, so it's not nearly as bad as it was.

[RJ_Daley]

When ever I return to that area, it will surely be to play golf on interesting courses of design merit and have fun.  In my definitions of those two activities mixed together, Tobacco Road is a must return.  Having played it 4 times now, I really think it is the perfect contrast to playing other Ross courses when down there.  I wouldn't mind seeing Forrest Creek for more contrast (like Turboe had the opportunity to do, although none of the rest of us did     )

Geoff, I remember well your misgivings about TR and enjoyed reading them because it is very understandable that features you pointed out were valid points of criticism.  Your railing about the slopes of the mounds with loose RR tie steps were something I hoped they will have corrected before someone did break their neck.  But, that 15th down wind doesn't seem to me so objectionable after they removed the guarding severe mound on the entrance to the green, blinding 90% of the surface.  As Scott states, one can bump one short to right pins now. As to the right and long fairway option, I believe much of the chance to either loft one up and over the scrub trees in the divider strip, or find the green with some shot creativity is definitely dicey, particularly if you gamble with distance down that right side and don't get far enough.  But, those are strategic options; are they not?

That's funny, but I love 12 and the green site hidden in the bowl, and 17 bommerang like racetrack.  Maureen O'hara, Bill?

[Scott_Burroughs]

Just nitpicking, but #13 is the hole y'all are referring to, not 12.

And Turboe is one of quite a few (me included) on this site who have been fortunate enough to play Forest Creek  .

[GeoffreyC]

Dick - your memory is excellent.

I sure hope they did something to fix 15 at TR. We had LOB wedges well struck from the fairway that bounded right over the green into the junk.

The 13th greensite is very narrow and needed more room to prevent lost balls just short or long.

I had a whole list of things I didn't like about TR two years ago. TR and Running Deer for that matter in my opinion take things a bit too far/ over the top/ wild without need.  They should look at Twisted Dunes to see for the most part how to get it right.

[George Pazin]

The worst thing about 15 is the drive to it.  

Actually, I had a weird experience. I hit one of the purer shots of my life on this tee, dead down the middle with a 3 iron, & I never found it. I don't know whether someone else picked it up, or what. Anyway, this is another hole with a green that is too shallow, IMHO. Thinking back, I would say that 1, 6, 13, 15 & 17 all qualify as too shallow. Maybe I'm just a lousy golfer, but I would like to think there are better ways to challenge all levels of golfer. I hit pitching wedge twice on 17 from the uppermost tee & airmailed the green twice, losing both balls in the gunk. Just couldn't bring myself to hit sand wedge from 150 yards out & 10 stories up. At least I didn't feel like throwing up on the tee like I did at Wolf Creek.  

Having said all that, I'd love to play this course again.

[Greg Stebbins]

After taking a look at the pictures, this looks like one course I need to get to.  It looks like too much fun.

[Mark_Fine]

I wish someone could pull up some of the old posts on TR.  I recall a number of people didn't like this golf course    I think it is an excellent track and has many features most of us here claim to enjoy.  Strantz gets carried away at times but so be it.  I like the fact that he is daring enough to try different ideas/concepts or re-introduce old ones.  A must play if you are anywhere in the area!

[Tim_Weiman]

Scott Burroughs:

I'm not sure where I said anything about Raynor being a genius and/or Fazio or Strantz being repetitive.

Not having the talent to be an architect, I'm somewhat in awe of the challenge architects face avoiding the repetitiveness thing.

When Mike Strantz went out on his own, there were especially high hopes for his work, perhaps higher expectations than any other architect at the time.

Strantz did impress people that he was willing to take risk and build courses unlike anything other people were doing.  Nonetheless, my reaction to TR was that it seemed very similiar his RNK.

I was probably more disappointed with Strantz than say Pete Dye because I had already expected "repetitiveness" form Dye but hoped Strantz would somehow avoid it.

For me the lesson is that avoiding a feeling of repetitiveness is damn hard to do no matter who you are.

[Scott_Burroughs]

I was probably referring more generally to your (rightfully so) defense of Fazio in that if one (beloved) architect does something like repeat themselves, it's genius, if Fazio (or Rees, etc) does it, it's repetitive.  It seemed like you were contradicting yourself in a way.  That's all I was trying to say.  Now I will shut up.

[Mark_Fine]

Tim,
If RNK and TR look the same, it fooled me!  There are similar design features but the properties are very different in my view.  TR for example has a quasi Pine Valley feel on a number of holes while RNK does not!  RNK is a "big" track while TR seems more confined.  Where do you see repetitiveness?
Mark

[TEPaul]

Never been there but those photos sure are interesting. Looks like some wonderful stuff. The bunkering looks great, he made it rugged and random and seems to have melded it architecturally into that site and what was there well. He does have all the touches too, interesting vegetation, little wooden steps here and there, some bunker sides that look like some vicious natural element tore the earth away. And then there is the use of the quarrying, and even a "beach" bunker.

I love the look of #4--looks very strategic too for a par 3, and I love that little "scar" bunker apparently fronting #2. Looks like he made it to look like a little "wash" area and if it's right in the middle of the approach, I love the concept, the strategy it must create and I like how its surrounds, the "draw balls to it" effect of surrounds (and the short grass maintenance to the sand) adds to that.

He sure did some serious shaping there (fairway on #10) and those mounds on #1 are something else! But if you're going to do something that site unnatural and outrageous at least give those mounds some really rugged vegetation (as he did) and the little bunkers at their bases is really good. I guess those huge mounds create a good and interesting degree of strategy on that hole too.

So it looks really interesting! I did see that some of the contributors mentioned some of the holes look a bit like Pine Valley--I agree. I see redanman posted on here and I'm surprised he didn't mention about the pine trees at Tobacco Road--they even seem to create some hole separation on this course. It looks like some of those photos were taken in the fall and there is some beautiful coloration in some of those trees. I guess this is North Carolina and since this is a new course there does appear to be plenty of mature natural pines and such on the site.

But in deference to redanman's (BillV) philosophy, I should recommend that Tobacco Road get out the chain saws and get all the trees off this course and this site and make it look like a real golf course to go with the good architecture!

[Mark_Fine]

Tom,
I'm sure TR will take Pine Valley's lead and as soon as PV removes all their trees, TR will do the same  
Mark

[Scott_Burroughs]

I believe you meant par 5 for #4, not par 3.

It's also not the first time that Strantz has used the "scar" bunker.  He first used it in front of the par 3 17th at Caledonia.

If I had to complain about TR and Caledonia, it's that the par 3's are all close to the same short length.  There are no long par 3's and only a couple mid-length par 3's.  Granted the difficulty is usually higher with the shorter par 3's, but I still think there needs to be more variety.

There are 5 par 3's at both TR and Caledonia.  Here's the run-down on the back tee length of the par 3's at each course:

TR:  165, 148, 184, 152, 142.
Cal: 187, 157, 118, 167, 156.

A couple of notes:  The first and third par 3's at TR were actually lengthened from the originals that used to be 152 and 178 yards long.  The fourth at TR, #14, has essentially been shortened considerably.  It originally had a back tee at 194 and the next tee was 178, but each were too hard for the extremely narrow target green surrounded by water on one side and difficult waste area on the other.

As Ran has conjectured and I wholeheartedly agree with, I think that at TR, a long uphill par 3 between #12 green and #13 tee should be added to replace #17, which has a ridiculous "diode" green with pin placement either way left or way right only separated by a 3 yard wide (a guess) strip of green.  It's also just a pitch gap wedge from the tips downhill where you must double back from the green to get to 18 tees, which are next to 16 green and 17 tees.

[Ran Morrissett]

Geoffrey,

Your posts here surprise me. While everyone judges a course based on personal experience, in this case you seem to be writing-off a different/unique course based on playing it once in truly abnormal conditions - you weren't keeping score, were you?  

In the 18 months I've lived here, I don't remember the wind  ever getting to 25mph. Even if it did, I would think Tobacco Road's width would make it a great wind course - but only once you know how to approach certain greens and use their contours to your aid.

On the 15th for instance, couldn't you drive well to the right (though it would be blind from the tee and take some nerve) and then angle the approach in to catch the severe right to left slope in the green and have the ball chase toward the left hole locations?

Are you coming to the Golf Week rater get-together in late March in Pinehurst? If so, save time for a game with me at Tobacco Road - any member at Yale can appreciate that some courses take time to appreciate!

Tim,

Can you elaborate on why/how TR ssems similar to RNK? RNK was built and is marketed as a "links" course with all its dunes/mounds. Tobacco Road is in an abandoned quarry. Also, I would be curious to know the answer but I would imagine that Strantz moved a multiple of 7 times or higher cu. yds of dirt at RNK than Tobacco Road.

Cheers,