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rjsimper

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Re: Dismal River - GCA/Rater weekend - Sept 16-18!
« Reply #25 on: August 13, 2011, 09:59:50 AM »
I am not trying to threadjack or incite a riot, so maybe we should start a new thread....but even here it still seems like we don't have a clear picture on why the general feel around the course is so much more positive. Don't get me wrong, I love that it's happened...but it's very thought-provoking.

Adam has said that the changes to what's on the ground are the reason.
JC has suggested the lifting of the veil of ignorance
Scott has (sort of) suggested the enthusiasm of the owner and members.

Each theory put forth seems feasible to me...though only Adam's can be viewed with any sort of objectivity...which is why I asked for a comprehensive and concise account, preferably with photos, of the changes.

I can buy all three of these as theories, and I am sure that there's some shade of gray between them that explains all...it's still just remarkable to me because I hardly remember anything good said upon opening....so something great happened. And given that, is it a formula that other courses can adopt? I have never seen such a dramatic reversal of prevailing opinion.

I do very much want to go play Dismal - a good friend of mine played earlier this summer and thought highly of it...better than Rock Creek. So based on the high praise of Rock Creek, that sounds pretty good to me.

Jim Nugent

Re: Dismal River - GCA/Rater weekend - Sept 16-18!
« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2011, 10:01:23 AM »
JC, That's a load. It's the changes that have been made that are what is pushing the course to receive favorable reviews.

Those who report on their experience, with constructive criticism, is not bashing.

I agree with you 100%, Adam.  The criticisms I recall came from people who played the course.  Their common complaint was playability.  As you point out, DR made lots of changes, almost from the start, and now the course gets lots of love.  Kinda suggests the criticisms had something to them.  

VERY eager to hear reports back after this event takes place.  

JC, you think this site has an anti-Jack bias, and a pro-Doak bias.  While I slightly agree, to me it's like preferring Mozart over Salieri.  A question.  Which course would you bet turns out better at DR?  Jack's or Tom's?  




JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River - GCA/Rater weekend - Sept 16-18!
« Reply #27 on: August 13, 2011, 10:04:54 AM »
Wish I could make it out to Dismal--I'll definitely be there sometime again in the near future.

For those who continuously want to detract from the place: you should be the ones who make the trip out there in September.  It really is a special golf course, and, from what I understand, it has changed massively from the original configuration.  The current 13th green (high right, NOT low left) and the new 18th green are great fun, and they both make the golf course a lot more playable.  Seriously, I don't think there is one hole out there that is even mediocre--they are all solid.

Two gripes:

1. I'd love to see the mowing lines moved out even more around the greens.  The greens are so interesting because of the backboards and sideboards, and the current fairway lines do bring them into play.  However, I'd like to fairway cut even farther away from the green.  I'm thinking about places like the 8th green to the right.  It's all there, it's done pretty well, but it could be done even better.

2. Walking paths!  Yes, the course is walkable, but paths from tee to fairway would help.

Even so, the course is excellent, and a blast to play.  The par threes are excellent and incredibly diverse as a set.  The fives, especially 4 and 18, are solid.  Great short fours at 6, 8, and 13.  Great long fours at 1, 2, 7, 11, 14, and 16.  Just rock solid all the way around.

CJ: I'm not big, but I'm slow.  Even so, I might be able to contribute a bit as a slot receiver.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2011, 10:11:05 AM by JNC Lyon »
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River - GCA/Rater weekend - Sept 16-18!
« Reply #28 on: August 13, 2011, 10:07:50 AM »
JC, That's a load. It's the changes that have been made that are what is pushing the course to receive favorable reviews.

Those who report on their experience, with constructive criticism, is not bashing.

I agree with you 100%, Adam.  The criticisms I recall came from people who played the course.  Their common complaint was playability.  As you point out, DR made lots of changes, almost from the start, and now the course gets lots of love.  Kinda suggests the criticisms had something to them.  

VERY eager to hear reports back after this event takes place.  

JC, you think this site has an anti-Jack bias, and a pro-Doak bias.  While I slightly agree, to me it's like preferring Mozart over Salieri.  A question.  Which course would you bet turns out better at DR?  Jack's or Tom's?  





Jim,

No clue.  I bet Tom's will be ranked higher by the magazine raters but really, Dismal River will have the same problem as Bandon Dunes (multiple world class golf courses that people debate which they like the best).  I think that is a good problem to have!!
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River - GCA/Rater weekend - Sept 16-18!
« Reply #29 on: August 13, 2011, 10:53:21 AM »
CJ, another question, will you have "201" hats made up for the outing?
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Chris Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River - GCA/Rater weekend - Sept 16-18!
« Reply #30 on: August 13, 2011, 10:55:48 AM »
All - forgive this lengthly reply.

Ryan - here is a brief reply and summary of the changes made from the beginning:

Most important - Irrigation - finally fully calibrated and "tuned" have driven the terrific course conditioning.  Getting this right is key on every course.  Irrigating the native grass was a problem as this caused lost balls just off of fairways and that simply isn't fun.  We have leaned the water and mow the (3-6 bands) of the native 2-3 times per season to mimic cattle grazing.  The pure fine fescue fairways are fast and the water is now where and in amounts it needs to be.  The layout provides a very unique experience, even for the Sandhills.  Playability has been enhanced.

Experience - DRGC had at least 5 Superintendents in 5 years.  Turnover was a killer.  We now have continuity - a key in any organization.  We have an outstanding crew with great management and we like and suport each other.  I have known and worked with our Super for 11 years, Dir of Golf for 16, and Exec Chef for 16.  They are all among the best in the business, the attention to detail and planning are dialed in, all of which help deliver the "experience".

Engagement of the Designer - Mr. Nicklaus and Chris Cochran were out often last year. They love Dismal River and have been and continue to be very supportive.  Be it Doak or Nicklaus, an engaged designer is important.

Greens - I believe 8 greens were reworked to lessen severity of which I am not a fan.  With A1/A4 and reasonably fast (not Sand Hills fast) the slopes were too much for the members.  I don't enjoy greens too fast and hate them too slow.  While still challenging, they are now a whole lot more fun and fair for a wide range of players who visit.  The combination of speed and slope/pitch is now "just right".

Finishing Hole - Old 18 was a fun but not a finishing hole reflective of a true top course.  We moved the green complex so you can see the entire hole.  She is now 515 yards, uphill and into the prevailing wind.  Reachable for some, still a challenge, a very fun way to finish up.  One of the most beautiful holes I have seen anywhere.  I can't think of a weak hole in the routing and, yes, some are very challenging.  I like it that way.

Focus on fun/soul - we keep things pretty simple out here and are engaged, friendly and fun.  Dismal is not pretentious or strict as we simply revere the game and the experience.  Dismal isn't expensive to join - that allows a great member make-up as economic barriers are a downer.  We like to think we do what we do quite well but don't have a ton of frills. We treat all members, and their guests like guests at our home.  We don't much care the pedigree of your home club, we just want people who appreciate good and pure golf in a unique place.  

To the comments about the past and the designer.  If you look close enough, all courses have warts and challenges - many of these are what become endearing in time.  Rather than focus on what was, we look at what is.  Fact is, good people make for good golf and we have to play on after a bad hole.  I am flattered hearing people who do visit say we are comparable to, or better than, Sand Hills, Ballyneal, Sutton Bay, Prairie Club, Awarii, Bayside, or Wild Horse, but take this with a grain of salt.  I get feedback all the time of perceived shortcomings, here and elsewhere - these can be found at every course.   One place has slow greens, one is too strict, one may require walking only, one may have ridiculous greens, or that conditioning is subpar or better.  As we interact with people, we hear that kind of feedback all the time, as I'm sure our neighbors do - differences simply help define that particular place in the world of the game.   Fact is, Dismal River is in a great neighborhood with absolutely outstanding courses nearby, not unlike Long Island, Columbus, Scotland or a host of other areas with terrific golf.  It would be great if we could work together for the good of the game, each other, and the region.  That is a noble goal.  The "this is better than that" discussion really doesn't matter - All are very good.

fwiw, I do believe Dismal River would be considered much more openly and favorably if the neighbors weren't so very good in their own right.   We are fans of and support good golf in all iterations.  Differences are good and we celebrate them.  We support and admire every course out here and revere the differences each offers.  The game is one of gentlemen - you don't play each other - your opponent is the ball and old man par.  The game would be boring if all were the same or if it were easy.  

Again, you are invited to come out and form your own opinions in the "now".  It should be a fun weekend for friends, new and old.

Chris Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River - GCA/Rater weekend - Sept 16-18!
« Reply #31 on: August 13, 2011, 11:07:16 AM »
CJ, another question, will you have "201" hats made up for the outing?

Patron - Many surrounds are so step as to make expansion problematic from a maintenance pov.  I agree on the paths but this week we have man eating grasshoppers.

I'm hoping for some "BedBoss" hats.  May have "201" embroidered into a corner of flags next year and will definately have some "201" caps next season - probably with bills slightly misplaced or the panels rippled!  Maybe that should be the green fee?  Every cart numbered 201?  Every Par 3 at 201 yards? Every 200 yardage marker at 201?  This could be fun!
« Last Edit: August 13, 2011, 11:10:33 AM by Chris Johnston »

Tim Martin

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Re: Dismal River - GCA/Rater weekend - Sept 16-18!
« Reply #32 on: August 13, 2011, 12:19:22 PM »
To hear the accolades from the GCA Dismal members as well as the other GCA`ers that have made the trip out to Nebraska puts it very high on the list of must plays. That comprises a list of pretty well traveled guys whose opinions are valued. To see the rapport that has been built with Chris Johnston along with his outreach and generosity to our ranks is enviable. If I take a trip of any distance in the near future I hope it is to Dismal as it is a part of the country I have never seen. After the Doak course is built I`m sure it`s legend will grow even larger.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2011, 12:22:19 PM by Tim Martin »

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River - GCA/Rater weekend - Sept 16-18!
« Reply #33 on: August 13, 2011, 01:18:03 PM »
CJ, another question, will you have "201" hats made up for the outing?

Patron - Many surrounds are so step as to make expansion problematic from a maintenance pov.  I agree on the paths but this week we have man eating grasshoppers.

I'm hoping for some "BedBoss" hats.  May have "201" embroidered into a corner of flags next year and will definately have some "201" caps next season - probably with bills slightly misplaced or the panels rippled!  Maybe that should be the green fee?  Every cart numbered 201?  Every Par 3 at 201 yards? Every 200 yardage marker at 201?  This could be fun!

As long as the paths are under consideration, it's good by me.

I support all of the 201 ideas (except for the greens fee and par three yardage).  Definitely the 200 markers at 201 instead--classic!
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

JC Jones

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Re: Dismal River - GCA/Rater weekend - Sept 16-18!
« Reply #34 on: August 13, 2011, 01:21:26 PM »
I just got the "201" joke and it is really, really funny! ;D ;D
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River - GCA/Rater weekend - Sept 16-18!
« Reply #35 on: August 13, 2011, 01:26:58 PM »
Post #30 and the attitude presented within it, is no small reason why I became a member of Dismal. 

I want to be associated with people who live their life like that.  Say what you will about the course, rank it #201 modern, #1000 modern, or #1 modern.  It doesn't matter to me.  I want to be a member and I want to get out there an interact with the people as much as I can.

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River - GCA/Rater weekend - Sept 16-18!
« Reply #36 on: August 13, 2011, 01:45:11 PM »
Post #30 and the attitude presented within it, is no small reason why I became a member of Dismal. 

I want to be associated with people who live their life like that.  Say what you will about the course, rank it #201 modern, #1000 modern, or #1 modern.  It doesn't matter to me.  I want to be a member and I want to get out there an interact with the people as much as I can.



Further as a non-member Mac`s post is exactly why I can`t wait to visit.

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Dismal River - GCA/Rater weekend - Sept 16-18!
« Reply #37 on: August 13, 2011, 02:02:47 PM »
Chris, football? I'll bring Ryan

Chris Johnston

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Re: Dismal River - GCA/Rater weekend - Sept 16-18!
« Reply #38 on: August 13, 2011, 02:06:53 PM »
Chris, football? I'll bring Ryan

Great kid - please do!  But, he can't have my jersey...I'm number 201!
« Last Edit: August 13, 2011, 02:16:12 PM by Chris Johnston »

Mac Plumart

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Re: Dismal River - GCA/Rater weekend - Sept 16-18!
« Reply #39 on: August 13, 2011, 03:58:37 PM »
I still get conflicting views about DR from those who have seen it before and after, so it's hard to know what to believe. If you trust Chris, Mac, Eric and others, then this could be one of the greatest Doak scale jumps of all time.

I guess the only way to know for sure is to see it for yourself, which makes it that much better that Chris provided this generous invite.

Jim...I've said things like this before, but I don't know if people hear it.  So, like I always do...I'll mention it again. :)

You say, "if you trust Chris, Mac, Eric, and others"  I really don't think it is a "trust" thing.  It is a "do you like the same type of courses thing."  That is why I don't find comments like, "Course X is the best" to be of much value.  Rather an explanation of why course X is the best is much more valuable. 

I've described what I see at Dismal, in terms of the golf course, in detail on a few threads.  To summarize, I call it thrilling golf.  Exciting shots, interesting putts, epic bunkers, amazing natural landscape.  (Frankly, I think it is very akin to Sebonack just located in the sand hills region of Nebraska.)  Furthermore, I've also tried to be quite candid on the criticisms of the course.

Why do I do that and/or why do I think these more verbose explanations are better?  It give the reader a chance to see if they'd like to give the course being described a chance.  That is all.  What are the risk/rewards and opportunity costs of playing a course. 

For instance, you.  You seem to LOVE Ballyneal.  In a slow day, you could probably play the course twice...and maybe three times on a normal day.  Or you could go to Ballyneal and take any given day and drive to Mullen and play Dismal and drive back and/or stay the night.  That risk/reward is at least 3 lost rounds at Ballyneal for you.  Is that worth it for you?  I don't know, but I think lots of people have given their opinion on what they've seen at Dismal and you have to then make the call. 

Hopefully, everyone on this site has enough information to make their own personal utility call on the risk/reward of a trip to Dismal.

If we constantly do this on all courses we discuss, then we should have a great database of information on courses for people to pick and choose what fits they tastes. 
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River - GCA/Rater weekend - Sept 16-18!
« Reply #40 on: August 13, 2011, 04:19:46 PM »
Deleted.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2011, 06:06:23 PM by Eric Smith »

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Dismal River - GCA/Rater weekend - Sept 16-18!
« Reply #41 on: August 13, 2011, 06:05:48 PM »
I'd like to attend but my 2 alma maters are playing on the 17th here in Philly and I ordered tix months ago:


v.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2011, 06:09:01 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River - GCA/Rater weekend - Sept 16-18!
« Reply #42 on: August 13, 2011, 06:29:33 PM »
Steve, my friend - You'd really love it out there.  The "home theater" has 16 huge leather recliners for you to enjoy the Owls game!

Tim - Laura and I drove to Mullen from Philly.  Many think the Great Plains are boring, but we loved the trip.  From Phily to South Bend (toured Notre Dame where my nephew starts this year, to Chicago, Madison, and Sioux Falls (a really cool town) to Pierre (Sutton Bay) to Badlands NP to Mt Rushmore to the Black Hills to Wind Cave NP to Custer State Park (SD) to Mullen and back home.

PS - Chris has posted a very cool Notre Dame "Play Like A Champion Today" sign on the mile-long path from the clubhouse/lodges to the golf course.   Chris' son is a Golden Domer, and like his dad, is pure class.

Our next great road trip is up to Cape Breton Island for Cabot Links, Highlands Links, and the Cabot Trail, but Mullen has really gotten into my soul.

As an example of the great people out there... The day after DR, we spent a day/night at Sand Hills.  The "starter" there is the coach of the Mullen HS football team, and has been for 30 years.  We must've talked football for an hour on Ben's porch with our forecaddie who played for the school's rival.   Met his wife at dinner - she stopped by our table and told us how much Coach enjoyed our talk.

And then, we had all the employees in the clubhouse really working to get us up to Mullen itself for the fireworks.    

Remember, SH and DR are essentially next door neighbors, and they both have a similar mindset.  I sure as heck didn't sense anybody looking down their nose like you can get at some resorts.

Like I said, it's all about "you're family" out there.   One can't put a price on that type of joyful vibe.

« Last Edit: August 13, 2011, 06:41:52 PM by Dan Herrmann »

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Dismal River - GCA/Rater weekend - Sept 16-18!
« Reply #43 on: August 13, 2011, 06:42:52 PM »
Dan.

Penn State is my football alma mater and Temple is my hoops alma mater. I'm having my entourage at the game so this trip will have to wait.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Kalen Braley

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Re: Dismal River - GCA/Rater weekend - Sept 16-18!
« Reply #44 on: August 13, 2011, 07:59:52 PM »
Chris,

Thanks for the very generous offer... I'd love to get out that way but September and October are out for me with my crazy work schedule coming up.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River - GCA/Rater weekend - Sept 16-18!
« Reply #45 on: August 13, 2011, 08:03:05 PM »
I was the last person to join Dismal before Chris and his group purchased the place.  I had read every word ever posted on this site or anywhere else I could find on the internet.  I joined after playing six holes at twilight on a day after the course had closed for the season.  I mean really, despite being accused of being an ubercontrarian whose sanity is often in question, I doubt if I would have joined Dismal if the press was as bad as many think.  As is normal with this site and the internet in general most commentary is petty in nature.  The simple fact of the matter is and will always be that Dismal is not Sand Hills.  90% of the negative comments centered on that fact.

First off and importantly I was not asked to join Sand Hills so that was not an option for me.  But I did have an opportunity to join a course that shares much with Sand Hills simply because of the close proximity.  Today it occurred to me that is like being offered Jay Lo without the ass.  That isn't all that bad even if some of your internet buds don't like her music.

I think I have said before on this site that I have an unhealthy desire to win at everything I do.  One of the key factors in any game is to identify the players.  Sand Hills is not in our league as they have a full and continuous membership.  Ballyneal is a far different course in a different land formation much closer to a metropolitan area which enables them to charge fees few can afford.  We are not in competition with Ballyneal in any facet of any part of the game or potential members.  What many need to learn is that what is good for Dismal is good for Ballyneal which is even good for Sand Hills.  Those of us who love each course should embrace each others love for the game instead of questioning what is a Doak 8.  News flash....If any of these courses aren't worth driving 100 miles to see there ain't going to be much golf going on at all.

Interestingly enough I was lucky enough to choose an outing at The Prairie Club with my winnings from the Ben Cox raffle.  I will play there for the first time in a few weeks.  I hope to love it and return again in the future even though it is a bit out of the way given Awarii, Wild Horse, Bayside and Ballyneal fit my Omaha to Denver connections much better.  Funny isn't it how each of the mentioned courses, including Sand Hills, has benefited from my membership at Dismal.

Hell, even the North Platte Hospital and ambulance service has gotten a taste.

I still remember telling Mac how I felt sorry for him having to go home and assign a number to Sand Hills and Dismal after our life changing trip to the region.  I don't know what number he gave Sand Hills but he joined Dismal, and Eric joined Dismal.  Wow, I can't explain how strange that made me feel having two more people see what I saw.  Eric and Mac can play anywhere in the country they choose anytime they want and they chose to join the same course that I did after just one visit.  I don't know why any of you would need any more proof than that that Dismal is special.  It has shaken my ubercontrarian soul to my bones.  I am tempted to see if it is just me and join Awarii....Nah.


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Dismal River - GCA/Rater weekend - Sept 16-18!
« Reply #46 on: August 13, 2011, 10:09:10 PM »
What many need to learn is that what is good for Dismal is good for Ballyneal which is even good for Sand Hills.


Thank you for that observation.  If I didn't share the same view, I would not be starting work out there in ten days' time.

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River - GCA/Rater weekend - Sept 16-18!
« Reply #47 on: August 13, 2011, 10:47:02 PM »
Nice post, John. I'll always appreciate your extending the invitation last summer -- it made all the difference in my golfing life. And to think we were supposed to bring Anthony along on that trip as well!

Chris Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River - GCA/Rater weekend - Sept 16-18!
« Reply #48 on: August 23, 2011, 01:40:45 PM »
With the new course underway, I wanted to remind all GCA'ers of the Sept 16-18 outing at Dismal River - we still have space.  Come on out to experience a great course and tour Tom's newest creation.

Our own Don Mahaffey will be on site to sign autographs and pose for photos.

Dave McCollum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River - GCA/Rater weekend - Sept 16-18!
« Reply #49 on: August 23, 2011, 02:15:04 PM »
Love to come, Chris, got something else going on.  I missed the thread the first time around.  If you have a list for lazy gca readers/posters, put me on it.  I'd love to come sometime.

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