Atlanta Athletic Club criticism getting old

[Jason Walker]

Eric-
Great post.

Garland-
Enough.  The vast majority of tournament golfers don't care about the 19 handicapper's recovery hopes from the bottom of a hill. More than likely you'll skull it up and over the green and slow down play playing ping pong across the green.  This isn't your Tuesday evening 9 hole match play league, it's a freaking major championship.  For somone who knows so much about this golf course, please point out to me ONE hole that you simply cannot play because it's too hard.  Yes, there are forced carries.  But why are you, the 19 handicapper, entitled to be able to clear them all?  On almost every water hazard I can think of there is an alternate route where---you MAY have to give up a shot, a la David Toms--but you can still play the hole.

I think when this championship is over everyone will/should have a greater appreciation for AAC as a MAJOR CHAMPIONSHIP venue.  Look at the huge breadth in scoring.  OH BY THE WAY, someone tied the major championship scoring record and the former world number one shot 77---ON THE SAME DAY.  We have a bunched up leaderboard going into the weekend and a final four finishing holes that promise to create drama on Sunday.  OH, but wait--the pros can't play a topped 7-wood into a 430 yard par four because there are bunkers and a pond fronting the green.  GIVE ME A BREAK.

[Jason Walker]

Garland-
with all due respect about Chambers Bay--a course I've played and loved by the way--more than one top amateur who shot 80 plus referred to it as 'goofy golf'. 

Watching top amateurs 3, 4, and 5 putt greens was sure a ton of fun.

[Mac Plumart]

For what it is worth, I live right by the course/club, have played both course a number of times, and interact with many member of the club on a very frequent basis.  

-Every single one of the member I interact with are very proud of the "championship" course, The Highlands.

-I'd say the majority of the members enjoy playing the Riverside course more.  It is easier and more of a joy to play for the average golfer.

-However, the golfers/members I know who play the Highlands course frequently are excellent golfers.  I've found people who play courses like this on a frequent basis become very good at the game over time.  

[Jason Walker]

Mac-
I cut greens on both courses 20 years ago.  I grew up with and still know a bunch of members.  What you post is dead-on.  As a par 72, from the correct tees, Highlands is very playable.

I love the place.  Never had a bad day there in my life.

[jeffwarne]

How many forced carries over water does the typical links course have?

How many ponds on par 3s do the typical links courses have.

Methinks this is a slog for the average golfer. I much prefer playing a possible recovery from the bottom on a depression over taking underwater swings.

Time to drop the RTJ standards for what is a good course and get with the program.

How often do 40 mph hour crosswnds, sleet, and rain rage through Atlanta in peak season?
How many holes at AAC have 2 foot deep fescue on one side, and guaranteed lost ball gorse on the other?
How many out of bounds cops two feet off a firm fairway does AAC have?
How many fairways bound balls into uncertain fate when a knob is struck just so from 280 yards out?
How many pot bunkers that require a backwards or sideways L wedge extrication does AAC have?
Links golf is awesome, and I embrace it when I'm priveledged to play it.
AAC isn't a links....or near one....get over it.

there are two course at AAC-let the hacks play the other one.


Time to relax and embrace different styles of architecture and get over the groupthink.
It's a PGA.
What were you expecting?

[PCCraig]

...
That's fine that you use it as short hand for traditional golf but Augusta is traditional and it has forced carries. ...

Ding dong, you're wrong.

Augusta was traditional when it was created. Then the dark lord, RTJ, came in and put in forced carries.

The Dark Lord??? Give me a break.

[Tim_Cronin]

For what it is worth, I live right by the course/club, have played both course a number of times, and interact with many member of the club on a very frequent basis.  

-Every single one of the member I interact with are very proud of the "championship" course, The Highlands.

-I'd say the majority of the members enjoy playing the Riverside course more.  It is easier and more of a joy to play for the average golfer.

-However, the golfers/members I know who play the Highlands course frequently are excellent golfers.  I've found people who play courses like this on a frequent basis become very good at the game over time.  

Mac,
   Sounds very much like a Medinah or Olympia Fields here in the suburbs of Chicago. One top-notch championship course that can host a major, and one not quite its equal for difficulty, but its equal in conditioning. (Plus a third course at Medinah.) I can see Mickelson's complaint that the course is too hard for the members, but, as TNT commentator (and AAC member) Jim Huber pointed out during the second round, the members aren't going to play it from the tips. And the 18th is a par-5 in real life, so there should be no complaint there.

   What's the yardage from the white tees? If it's around 6,500 and par 71 or 72, it's more than fair. Just keep it in play (which I cannot, based on my last two rounds).
Tim

[David Kelly]

There are many arguments to be made against AAC Highlands but Garland's "it's not a links course" seems pretty silly.

[Sam Morrow]

I have a funny feeling that if the first page of the leaderboard had the names, Woods, Mickelson, McIlroy, Els, etc that we would applaud the course for it being a great test of the game.

Since many people have been criticizing the course since well before the first ball in the tournament was struck I would disagree.

I admit I hadn't payed attention to what was being said pre tournament. I know that this site says the players don't know a good course but I guess this week since they agree with the treehouse it's okay?

[Sam Morrow]

Garland, do you ever feel dirty that Chambers Bay was designed by a man who came from the loins of the dark lord?

[Andy Troeger]

From only having watched highlights so far I think AAC is pretty good venue for a PGA Championship. The range of scores is pretty broad--the guys playing well have been able to go low both days (65 or better), but the course has been a significant challenge for the majority in the field. The winning score seems likely to be under par, but not double-digits. Someone 4-5 shots back on the last day could shoot a good score and go win the thing. There's nothing overly goofy about it--just a tough golf course that empahsizes proper exection. Its never going to be this group's thing because it doesn't appear overly strategic and its probably not the most fun course in the area even, but this is major tournament golf and there's a difference.

Garland isn't allowed to give this course a chance--it has fake ponds. It could be brilliantly creative otherwise and he wouldn't be able to get past that. I think the water is great for the tournament because its one of the few hazards that actually makes the pros think a bit. They don't usually care about bunkers because the recovery isn't that difficult for them.

[Tony_Chapman]

Don't want to take this thread off track, but I have a quick question. Are the closing two holes on the championship course acutally on the Riverside Course in regular play? I've looked the aerial dozens of times and can't for the life of me figure out a reason why they would incorporate that "cross-over" at 17 on the Highlands Course. Some scorecards I've found on the web show the Highlands finishing with a 578-yard par-5. Just wondering....

[Mark Saltzman]

Tony,

Yes they are in play on the normal Highlands course and yes the crossover is awkward.

And 18 can play as a par 5 somewhere around that length for the members, I think.  I was told that the reason that tee is not used for the PGA is that too much of the field would just hit 3W, 5I, SW and there would be no interest for the first two shots as they would both just be layups anyways.

[Jim Nugent]

I think the water is great for the tournament because its one of the few hazards that actually makes the pros think a bit. They don't usually care about bunkers because the recovery isn't that difficult for them.

I would put it a bit different.  Pro's care about bunkers, or at least they should: on average (the median) this year, they are saving par less than half the time from the sand around the green.  (48.31%.)  And of course their birdie % out of the bunker compared to a GIR must be infinitesimal.  I bet on average hitting into a greenside bunker costs them around 0.75 strokes, compared to hitting the green in regulation. 

I agree water makes them think more, because it usually exacts an even greater penalty from the pro's.   

[Mac Plumart]

Tim...yes...6,500-ish yards par 72.  Very playable.  In fact, a lot of those par 4's on the back are about 350-ish yards from the tees I play.  And that 260 yard par 3 is 180-ish.  Very, very challening...but playable for sure. 

[Jud_T]

Mac,

What's your honest opinion of the course as a member's regular track?  Doak rating?  What other courses have you played that you'd compare it to?  Would you enjoy playing there regularly?

[Mac Plumart]

Jud...

No need to ask for my "honest opinion", my "opinion" will suffice. 

Here is how I rate it among my favorites...

http://www.mrpgolf.com/MY_RANKINGS.html

You'll have to dig to find it, but you'll find it.   


If this was the only golf course available for play at Atlanta Athletic Club, I would have very little interest in being a member (of course I am not a member, but with the club's current configuration I think about it from time to time).  The course is simply too difficult for me to play day-in and day-out.  It is one of those courses you want to play once a year to test your game.

Doak rating...I don't have that thing memorized.  So, I don't know what number to give it.  But the gist is this, if you are in town and have time it is neat to play, but it would not be my first choice for in town golf.

I feel like it is comparable to The Golf Club of Georgia Lakeside course.  A stern and relentless test of golfing skill. 

[Jud_T]

Right below Aiken Golf Club?  An interesting although no-doubt coincidental pairing...   Thanks for responding...

[Andy Troeger]

Jim,
That seems reasonable, but in some ways I'd be more interested in the difference (for them) in recovery from bunkers versus recovery from water. Given that the drop position varies, it becomes harder to project, but just the penalty stroke alone adds a full stroke to the difference from the bunker. All of a sudden you have a 1.75 stroke difference from hitting the green and that gets those guys attention.

I just think with bunkers that the pros are confident enough in their game with short irons (which is normally what they hit into most holes) that they figure they'll hit the green enough to offset that occasional bunker miss, where they have a 50% chance of recovery anyway. With water, the offset is a bit more difficult to assume.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Eric i am glad you are enjoying yourself. I too find the course average from a design point of view. It like Congressional is just hard to understand. It is not even fun to watch it on TV. I love the Jones Monument and having another  major in the deep south. The certainly is not anything other than my opinion. I would love southern cities like Atlanta, Houston, Miami, Memphis, New Orleans, Tampa and Dallas to have more top tier courses from a design viewpoint.

[Andy Troeger]

Without wanting to get too far off topic, I wonder how AAC compares to a place like Shoal Creek one state over? I played that one last year and remember it hosted a PGA 20 years ago. I could see there being some similarities although I like Nicklaus' bunkering style better for what that's worth.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Shoal Creek is a better course but has not been Reesed up yet either.

[Matthew Rose]

A few too many lakes and bunkers for my liking. I don't loathe water par-threes like some do, but I think four is overkill, especially when they are 200+. I'm mixed about the number of bunkers.... also seems like overkill, although I'm seeing more players drive into bunkers in one tournament than I have in recent memory.... and part of me is enjoying that.

Nobody can get any momentum going on the damn thing.... everybody's goin' birdie, birdie, double bogey, bogey, birdie, bogey.

Maybe for tournament golf, that's not all bad. As a venue, I think the PGA is getting exactly what it wants out of this event. So on that front, it actually kind of makes sense as a venue.

I think if 18 was a par-five, nobody would be complaining.

[Garland Bayley]

Garland, do you ever feel dirty that Chambers Bay was designed by a man who came from the loins of the dark lord?

Ding dong, wrong again.
Check out Paul Daley's Golf Course Architecture Vol 5 where the designers wrote an article about designing and building Chambers Bay.

[Sam Morrow]

Garland, do you ever feel dirty that Chambers Bay was designed by a man who came from the loins of the dark lord?

Ding dong, wrong again.
Check out Paul Daley's Golf Course Architecture Vol 5 where the designers wrote an article about designing and building Chambers Bay.

Does it have cliff notes?