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Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Three Carolina Courses: HOPE VALLEY CC New
« on: September 01, 2016, 10:16:15 PM »
Built just a few years prior to the 1929 market crash, the neighbourhood of Hope Valley was designed to be a country club estate surrounding a Donald Ross course.  Well outside normal public transport routes, the estate was meant to be accessed exclusively by automobile. Not being a suburb of Durham or Chapel Hill, the country colony aspect of the estate was fairly easy to maintain for many years after the course was completed in 1926.  With a great many of the original homes surviving, the entire Hope Valley Historic District is now listed on the National Register of Historic Places.
 
After piecemeal changes over many decades the club decided it was time to restore the spirit of the original Ross design.  Brian Silva completed the work about 15 years ago after focusing on green restoration, tree removal for healthier turf and bunker work which included ~20 new bunkers. It is thought that Maxwell redesigned the greens in the 1930s. Its an odd one considering Maxwell is known for designing intricate greens... which Hope Valley's are not. The greens are now overwhelmingly defined by slope and rely on speed for interest. Truthfully, its a head scratcher. I would have thought the combo of Ross and Maxwell would have produce far more interesting greens. Such imagined contoured greens could only add interest to what is a very well planned housing estate course.  A predominate number of holes work the Ross formula of knob to knob golf with many uphill approaches, but the green edges are now disconnected leaving very un-Ross-like ubrupt breaks between fairways and greens.

Any fears of the dreaded housing estate syndrome were quickly squelched.  Yes, there are houses throughout the routing and several road crossings, but the impact on the design is quite minimal.  The houses are mostly set well back from fairway corridors and green to tee walks remain comfortable.  The only awkward walk is from 9 to 10 and that would have been the case even if a road crossing wasn’t involved.  Although, I am somewhat surprised a “golfer trail” hasn’t been created to make the walk short as possible.
 
Hope Valley is not without its share of golf history. The Durham Open was the 4th consecutive win for Byron Nelson during the 1945 season.  Nelson would go on to win an incredible 11 consecutive PGA Tour events that year.  Two of the wins were contested over matchplay (the PGA and Miami International); the other events were won by an average of nearly seven shots! 

A very inviting opener...except for the crossing creek. Truth be told, there is no reason to flirt with the water as a strong lay-up will leave not much more than an 8 iron.  It doesn't take much time to realize the greens are quick and that going above the hole, in true Ross fashion, is likely to result in a troublesome two-putt.


The longish short hole 2nd is fairly straight forward.  The following hole, a modest length par 4 offers an interesting drive.  It is quite easy to drive through the dogleg, but it is an enticing prospect to carve one around the corner.


In the August heat and humidity bermuda grass can be unforgiving in terms of roll.  Hope Valley played its full length and of course this means it can be tricky gauging the distance on uphill approaches...of which there are plenty. #4. 




Perhaps the best hole, the 5th slides a bit right.  The fairway seems wide open, but there is a creek up the optimal left side. 




A fine par 3, the uphill nature of the 6th was an oft repeated theme for Ross.


The good golf continues with the 7th, a medium length two-shotter featuring a distinctive L shape green. The tongue of the L is a slippery slope toward the tee and nearly impossible to keep the ball between the hole and the player when hole is near the front of the green.


A good par five, however, the 8th follows a well trodden theme of down and up.

 


Taking us back in the neighbourhood of the house, the 9th is less straightforward than it seems.  The green leaks quite severely right.




More to follow.

Ciao
« Last Edit: May 17, 2022, 12:14:17 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Three Carolina Courses: HOPE VALLEY CC 1-9
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2016, 05:03:16 AM »
Similar to the opener, #10 is an inviting hole.


The 11th requires a bit of precision off the tee as it is easy to leak a drive close to the road. 


There is perhaps a hole or two, too many with drives working right around trees; #12. 


More to follow.

Ciao
« Last Edit: September 08, 2016, 02:43:17 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Three Carolina Courses: HOPE VALLEY CC 1-12 New
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2016, 03:32:06 AM »
Although it plays longer than it looks, #13 is a fairly straight-forward hole.


The course has an odd routing hitch with 14/15 as after playing the short 14th we walk back to the 15th tee. Of course, one could play the forward tee.  The green slopes much more left than it looks from the tee.


Playing uphill the entire length of the hole, 15 is a tough par 5 to reach in two.  The green is sloped toward the fairway so it is important to keep the ball between you and the hole...not a bad mantra for a large percentage of Ross holes.


We hit blindly downhill for the 16th before legging hard left for an uphill approach.  Due to the greensite, this is probably my favourite hole.


Hope Valley's only really distinctive hole follows.  We get a great view of its oddity from the 16th so there are no surprises when on the tee.  Nothing but an extremely accurate tee shot will do as the drive is jammed between trees left, a creek right and trees long.  If we have successfully negotiated this trial, a sharp and long incline to the green follows.  I can't say this is my favourite hole, but if one earns a par there should be a great sense of satisfaction.

The home hole is long par 3 with a pronounced false front.  I imagine when the course is more keen in winter months that bouncing an approach up the slope would be far easier than in the sticky conditions of August. Set just off the tee is the plaque which celebrates Nelson's inhuman accomplishment.


That then is Hope Valley.  While I understand that conditions must be accepted for what they are, I wish we could have played Hope Valley when the bermuda grass doesn't inhibit the ground game to the degree it can do in August.  I think playing the course in November would reveal a completely different animal.  Still, I was somewhat surprised by the lack of flare.  There is no question the course is filled with solid shots and that uphill approaching will be thoroughly tested, but I had hoped for more holes of distinction.  That said, only those seeking the very best courses could be disappointed should they find themselves on the first tee. 2016

Ciao

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« Last Edit: September 25, 2020, 04:43:12 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Three Carolina Courses: HOPE VALLEY CC
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2016, 08:20:55 AM »
Stop talking about Hope Valley, people are liable to start wanting to go there!
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Philip Hensley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Three Carolina Courses: HOPE VALLEY CC
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2016, 09:43:21 PM »
#1 is almost identical to #10 at roaring gap, which was supposed to have been the "new" #1 once the golf shop was opened years later.

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Three Carolina Courses: HOPE VALLEY CC
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2016, 10:22:55 AM »
Sean,
A very nice profile; thank you.

To quibble just a bit:
1. The original greens at HVCC were bermuda, then were converted to bent in the early 1980's.  At that point, contours were ADDED by Dan Maples to the greens from the original Ross greens.  Silva actually took many of these contours OUT in the process of enlarging the greens are restoring them to much more of the original Ross configurations.  And it's good that he did; since the conversion to Champion bermuda, the greens would have been unplayable with old contours.  I'm more than a little surprised that you think there should be more to those greens; I find them to be plenty challenging!

2. The walk from #9 to #10 is all of 100 yds., and brings the walking golfer right by the grill and locker rooms.  You are correct that it is the longest green-to-tee walk on the course, but it's all of 2 minutes if you don't stop.  And fwiw, there is no way to make a "golfer trail" for that walk w/o cutting thru the pool (too wet) or the tennis courts (too dangerous). ;)

3. Finally, I don't think I understand what you mean by "lack of flare".  There isn't a weak hole on the golf course, and the variety is outstanding.  I consider at least 5 and 7 to be great holes on the front, and the stretch of holes from 11 thru 14 is just wonderful. (FWIW, among the VERY few changes since Ross laid out the course, 15 was originally a par four and 16 was a par 5; that's been reversed, and both holes are likely better for it.)  And if you like the Ross "tendency" to end with a great, long par 3, the 18 is a prototype, I think.

(Disclaimer: I am not now, nor have I EVER been a member at HVCC.  But I not only have played the course many, many times over the years, but I have played it both before and after the last three sets of renovations by Maples, LaFoy, and Silva.)
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Three Carolina Courses: HOPE VALLEY CC New
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2016, 11:13:38 AM »
Philip

Yes, HV's first is very similar to RG's 10th, but not as severe. 

AG

I learned my golf on a world class set of Ross greens, though at the time I had no idea this was the case.  The greens in question feature both slope and contour....I will always be hopeless fan of this sort of design.  HV's greens are overwhelming about the slope and I think rely a ton on speed for interest.  I understand many golfers like speed as the challenge, but that isn't my bag.  That said, the greens were in the best nick of three courses we saw in Carolina.  Not too fast, but quite close to (my) edge of ideal. Being August they were very receptive, quite similar to the fairways with little roll-out. 

The walk from 9 to10 is an annoyng hitch, hard to avoid in a housing estate.  By a trail I meant something that was created when the house/pool etc was built...something creative which was probably done all those years ago before fencing laws etc were established.   Nowadays there is no way to accomplish this.

Holes with flare are those of distinction, standout holes, unusual holes.  I don't consider any but 17 to be in this class.  That doesn't mean there aren't many very good holes.  The word great is used too easily these days.  I like 5-7 and 16 a load (I like the entire course for that matter), but they aren't great in my book.  For instance, I think Mimosa Hills has a few holes of great distinction and a few great holes as well.  To me, usually this is more important than a more steady, solid design of holes I have seen at many places.  Although, I completely understand if others disagree.

Ciao
« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 07:21:09 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Three Carolina Courses: HOPE VALLEY CC
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2016, 09:31:01 PM »
Philip


Yes, HV's first is very similar to RG's 10th, but not as severe. 


AG


I learned my golf on a world class set of Ross greens, though at the time I had no idea this was the case.  The greens in question feature both slope and contour....I will always be hopeless fan of this sort of design.  HV's greens are overwhelming about the slope and I think rely a ton on speed for interest.  I understand many golfers like speed as the challenge, but that isn't my bag.  That said, the greens were in the best nick of three courses we saw in Carolina.  Not too fast, but quite close to (my) edge of ideal.  Being August they were very receptive, quite similar to the fairways with little roll-out. 


The walk from 9 to10 is an annoyng hitch, hard to avoid in a housing estate.  By a trail I meant something that was created when the house/pool etc was built...something creative which was probably done all those years ago before fencing laws etc were established.   Nowadays there is no way to accomplish this.


Holes with flare are those of distinction, standout holes, unusual holes.  I don't consider any but 17 to be in this class.  That doesn't mean there aren't many very good holes.  The word great is used too easily these days.  I like 5-7 and 16 a load (I like the entire course for that matter), but they aren't great in my book.  For instance, I think Mimosa Hills has a few holes of great distinction and a few great holes as well.  To me, usually this is more important than a more steady, solid design of holes I have seen at many places.  Although, I completely understand if others disagree.


Ciao

Sean,
FWIW, I have been told that Nelson chose the 11th at HVCC as one of his favorite 18 holes from his win streak.  I guess our tastes in golf holes and what we consider to be "flare" just differs; 17 isn't my least favorite hole on the course, but it's close.  And I play a draw!
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Three Carolina Courses: HOPE VALLEY CC
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2016, 05:53:40 AM »
I don't care for 17 either, but it is different and comfortably the most distinctive hole on the course.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Three Carolina Courses: HOPE VALLEY CC
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2016, 08:41:49 AM »
I don't care for 17 either, but it is different and comfortably the most distinctive hole on the course.


Ciao

Sean,
By words like flare and distinctive, do you mean memorable or good?  This is a serious question, and not a gotcha.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Three Carolina Courses: HOPE VALLEY CC
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2016, 09:33:39 AM »
I don't care for 17 either, but it is different and comfortably the most distinctive hole on the course.


Ciao

Sean,
By words like flare and distinctive, do you mean memorable or good?  This is a serious question, and not a gotcha.

AG

Distinctive is a memorable/unusual hole; not necesssarily a good hole (that is a personal call afterall).  HV's 17th is one that I woud call distinctive, but not terribly good.  There are plenty more convential holes on the course which are better, but not terribly distinctive.  It sounds goofy, but given there are 18 holes, I want to see some flare.  If the land doesn't provide it the archie has to.  However, as I said before, to each is own. Lots of folks are happy with good, no nonsense golf...and why not?  I don't begrudge this attitude, but these are not the sort of courses which will make it very high on my Happy 100 unless the course has other compelling apects going for it. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

BCowan

Re: Three Carolina Courses: HOPE VALLEY CC
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2016, 01:21:08 PM »
AG,

   I agree with you that 11 is the standout hole.  Don't feel bad his Arbleness didn't like 7 at Inverness from photos  ::).

   I think what holds a lot of solid courses back is presentation, always being soft. I played HVCC in November with perfect dry weather and it was soft with over seed.  Many great Detroit courses I played in drought were too soft, i think id rather play firm doak 4 then see a 7 or 8 kept soft.

   I played a $27 public track today in search of firmness. Unfortunately they got 3 inches of rain last night :'(

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Three Carolina Courses: HOPE VALLEY CC
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2016, 04:06:32 PM »
Do you have a picture of 17? Having a hard time remembering it.

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Three Carolina Courses: HOPE VALLEY CC
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2016, 06:39:58 PM »
Do you have a picture of 17? Having a hard time remembering it.

Carl,
The fact that you can't remember 17 doesn't surprise me at all; it is one of the least memorable holes at HVCC.  Wedged in between a great par 4 and a great finishing par 3, it is far from distinctive.

It's a hard dogleg left , with the last 140 yds. or so playing sharply uphill to a relatively flat green.  There is a creek running down the right side, and if you hit driver without a pretty good draw, it's possible to go thru the fairway.  Better players tend to hit 3W out into the flat and settle for a longer shot into the green rather than either get blocked out by trees on the left, or risk going thru the fairway on the right.

Hope that helps.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Three Carolina Courses: HOPE VALLEY CC
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2016, 06:47:37 PM »
AG,

   I agree with you that 11 is the standout hole.  Don't feel bad his Arbleness didn't like 7 at Inverness from photos  ::) .

   I think what holds a lot of solid courses back is presentation, always being soft. I played HVCC in November with perfect dry weather and it was soft with over seed.  Many great Detroit courses I played in drought were too soft, i think id rather play firm doak 4 then see a 7 or 8 kept soft.

   I played a $27 public track today in search of firmness. Unfortunately they got 3 inches of rain last night :'(

11 is a great hole, but I like 12, 13, and 14 just as much. 

And as for "flare", I classify 4, 5, and 7 as very much in that category.

If you were here in November, you caught us in the strangest weather situation I've ever seen, and I've lived in the SE my entire life.  We had unbelievable amounts of rainfall in the fall; a full week of hard rain in Sept, Oct, and Nov, with incredibly warm temperatures.  HVCC wasn't overseeded; the bermuda here didn't go dormant until well into January!  I've never seen anything like that in my entire life; occasionally, the bermuda will make it into December, but nothing like this year has ever happened before.  I played the wettest golf courses I've ever seen from mid-Sept thru early March; it was just bizarre.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Three Carolina Courses: HOPE VALLEY CC New
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2016, 12:06:42 PM »
I think 5, 7 & 16 are my favourite holes.  None of the flatter holes or par 3s turned my head, but I can't think of an indifferent hole. Only two holes I didn't care for, 17 & 18.   

Ciao
« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 07:23:50 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

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