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Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Below is a copy of an article from Steve Ellings Blog ste or news letter, what are the tree houses comments and thoughts.

AKRON, Ohio -- Golf is an individual sport. So is course design, in many fundamental ways.

Something about too many cooks in the kitchen comes to mind.

Which is why the Olympics proposal that Nick Faldo has floated to the International Golf Federation is more than a bit unusual, if not completely heretical.

With golf set to make a re-appearance at the 2016 Olympic Games in Brazil, the host venue hasn't yet been built and several big names have offered to design the course, including Jack Nicklaus, Annika Sorenstam and Greg Norman, among others.

Faldo, a six-time major winner and a designer himself, has pitched an altogether different plan in a letter to the IGF, which is in charge of the game as an Olympic sport.

At first blush, it sounds as though it could produce the biggest clash of egos in the history of the sport. It might even require a referee.

But if handled properly, it could certainly achieve Faldo's intended result -- to create a slew of publicity around the world about the Olympics push, because big-name players and designers from every corner of the world would potentially be involved in building the crucial host venue in Rio de Janiero.

Here are some excerpts from Faldo's letter to IGF brass:

"It is my hope that with this letter you might consider a genuinely international collection of player-designers, comprising major champions from all around the world working in the ultimate Olympic spirit as a design collaboration. What a tremendous, ongoing, global and historic story we could write for our sport as a truly international team of men's and women's champions create the venue for golf's return to the Olympics in 2016. Certainly some of the most-respected course designers in the world come from a global pool of the most-recognized champions.

"It is understood that the complexity of the site and the demands of the Olympic event would necessitate a unified and experienced process architecturally; as they say, egos should be checked at the door, but please imagine the worldwide interest and appeal this Olympic course as the truest collaboration of men's and women's champions -- from every continent.

"Consider for yourself, the major-champion designers from the continents of Africa, Australia, Europe, North America, South America and Asia. The announcement of this collaboration alone would generate true and positive worldwide interest and press in a truly Olympic story."

Faldo did not mention in the letter if he had spoken specifically to any players, nor did he identify any designers who were interested in the idea. In Faldo's mind, a lead architect would likely need to be appointed, but he believes that designers would leap at the chance to be involved in the project.

Just throwing around random names here, but if player-designers like Nicklaus, Palmer, Woods, Mickelson, Els, Faldo, Norman and their design ilk jumped in with both feet, it's undeniable that the interest in the project and Olympics push would increase overnight, and give several countries the feeling that their nation had participated in the outcome.

The site for the course in Rio has been identified, but no designer has been named.


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
That's such a bad idea they will probably go for it.

They'll need somebody to stitch it all together, though, who is willing to lay low and let each pro do his thing?  Maybe you should volunteer for that, Randy.

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
I think Nick is volunteering Faldo Design for that job.....
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
A camel is a horse designed by a committee...

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
One thing for sure though

we are toward the end of 2011 - they should find someone and get the thing started... unlike a building, you can't finish a course 2 months before the tournament and hope it will be good to go...

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
I don't know if it would be ideal, but at least it would be more interesting than watching the event played on a purely Jack, Anika, Faldo, Palmer, or other player-architect course.
H.P.S.

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
One thing for sure though

we are toward the end of 2011 - they should find someone and get the thing started... unlike a building, you can't finish a course 2 months before the tournament and hope it will be good to go...
It wouldn't be the olympics if the venues werent being built up until the day it started.  

i think it could work well.  

Norman was a great driver - he can design the tees.
Faldo was a great iron player - he can design the fairways.
Mickelson is a great bunker player, he can do the bunkers.
Crenshaw is great putter, he can do the greens.
Gary Player is very fit, he can do the paths between holes.  
mark Spitz was a great swimmer , he can do the water hazards.  
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Couple of comments,
1. Ego checking at the door would be possible with two out of eighteen and I doubt Faldo would be one of the two.
2. Get rid of Player designeers and put in Golf Architects from various Countries and the concepts starts to carry a different tune.
3. What I like about it, it could turn into expenses only, no fees and you would take out the major publicity for one individual firm.

Tom,
You route it and I will coordinate it! But the design part would be withiout fees but the routing and coordination would have large fees attached. ;D

Scott Sander

  • Karma: +0/-0
It could be fascinating as a one-off.   Maybe 'spectacle' would be a better word - since that can mean good, bad or both.  

IF they bite on it... a thought:
Instead of trying to manage the nightmare of having a bunch of player/designers agree on 18, they could split the course into 3 clusters of 6 holes, each with a grouping of 'names' - including one non-player architect.  The Nicklaus/Player/Palmer/Jones opening three.  Irwin/Lehman/Crenshaw/Fazio take the middle of the front.  Faldo/Jacklin/Olazabal/Kidd bring the opening 9 home.  The back starts with Davies/Sorenstam/Ochoa/Alice Dye.  The center section from Mickleson/Charles/Weir/Doak.  Then come home with Norman/Singh/Woods/Pete Dye.

Or something like that.  

Again - it's probably a completely untenable situation that would result in a comedically scizophrenic layout... but as a one-in-the-world thing it could be, um, interesting.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 09:54:53 AM by Scott Sander »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Randy:

I'd be happy to do the routing for an all-expenses-paid trip to the Olympics for my family, and no cash.  But, it's a pretty flat site, so the routing is not going to matter so much there as it does on good sites.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Randy:

I'd be happy to do the routing for an all-expenses-paid trip to the Olympics for my family, and no cash.  But, it's a pretty flat site, so the routing is not going to matter so much there as it does on good sites.

Couple observations.  1)  Does the golf course really have to be extraordinary for Oympic golf to be a success?  Considering that golf is nearly non-exsiting in Brazil, wouldn't the legacy of the Olympic course be maximized by it being designed for the long term use of the masses with playability and economical maintenance as the major considerations?

2)  If I am reading Tom Doak correctly, because the site is flat it is not good, and a techincally superior routing won't make much of a difference.  It is a curious perspective that appears to run counter to intuition and the opinions of a number of architects I've talked with.  I was under the impression that most architects prefer a moderately rolling, rectangular site that allows more creativity and ease of construction over one whose elevations tend to dictate the location of holes and positioning of major design features (greens, hazards, tees), absent a Fazio-size budget.

I second the nomination of Randy as the on-site coordinator, provided that he works a bit on his Portugese and Spanish.  Besides, having been mentored by the Master of Shadows and flat sites, Robert von Hagge, I am sure he can take the indifferent piece of land and make it appear magical, at least in early morning and late afternoon light. 

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
It wouldn't be the olympics if the venues werent being built up until the day it started.  

i think it could work well.  

Norman was a great driver - he can design the tees.
Faldo was a great iron player - he can design the fairways.
Mickelson is a great bunker player, he can do the bunkers.
Crenshaw is great putter, he can do the greens.
Gary Player is very fit, he can do the paths between holes.  
mark Spitz was a great swimmer , he can do the water hazards.  

 :)

-----

If not someone from South America, I'd like to see Mike and Don do it; leave the locals with something affordable, sustainable and fun.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Jim Nugent

It's a good publicity stunt.  I bet it would draw a lot more attention to the competition and the course.  I think the course itself would be a disaster.  Sort of like having a whole bunch of classical musicians collaborate to write a symphony. 

PS:  Is David Elvins Rich Goodale in disguise? 

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Count me in the camp as one who also thinks this would be a nightmare. 

How...:

...does one balance which holes who gets?  Is Nicklaus pissed cause he gets the 5 and 6th holes?
... does one balance the schedules of all these names and get them on the course at the proper time
...does one determine where the par 3s will be placed or the 4s etc.
...does one balance competing bunker styles and shapes
....does one balance a heaving wild green on one hole and then completely flat and featureless on the next?

I couldn't see any good coming out of this...

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jim,

It might draw tourists to the course after the event, but I can't see how Joe Blow would suddenly tune in to Olympic Golf to see the random celebrity GCA...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Anthony Gray



  Are they getting a late start on the project?

  Anthony


Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0


  Are they getting a late start on the project?

  Anthony



Its still 5 years away......

but before you know it 5 years will turn into 3...and then its going to be in the critical stage.

Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
I think that is the dumbest idea that I have ever heard re: golf course design.  

First it excludes non-player architects like Dye, Coore, Doak, Hanse, etc..., all of which are much better than the player designer firms.  

Second, you are going to have a golf course with absolutely no flow to it.  I can see it now:

Hole 1:  Norman - a long lush par 4 (with bermuda grass) with a narrow driving area and waste area bunkers running down the fairway.  No trees.  Shallow greenside bunkers with a flat green.
Hole 2:  Nicklaus - a reachable lush par 5 (with bentgrass) with a wide driving area and individual bunkers (not a waste area) down the hole.  Heavily wooded.  Deep greenside bunkers with flat green.
Hole 3:  Weiskopf - a reachable lush par 4 with a huge bunker (with bluegrass) that takes up most of the fairway and has his initials (TW) cut out in grass in the middle of it.
Hole 4:  Player - a flat par 3 that is a nice hole, but not very memorable.
Hole 5:  Faldo - a wild, linksy par 4 (with fescue) with no trees and huge landing areas.  Very undulating green.  

I think you get the idea.  

Here is my suggestion.  Give the project to Pete Dye and ask him to use the services of every person that has learned from him  - all under his direction.  That would include Coore, Doak and others. I think even Jack would be involved if it was for Mr. Dye.  It would be an honor to a man that has done a lot for the profession at the end of his career.
 
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Faldos main premis was that somehow this would promote the game of golf in parts of the world it hasn't aleady reached. How ?

I can't imagine folks in the US getting excited about cricket because Ian Botham designed the pitch, or in folks in South Africa getting in a sweat about gridiron because the New York Giants quarterback erected the posts. A completely bonkers idea that has every thing to do with self interest and nothing to do with getting the best, or even a good course designed and built.

Niall

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1

  If I am reading Tom Doak correctly, because the site is flat it is not good, and a techincally superior routing won't make much of a difference.  It is a curious perspective that appears to run counter to intuition and the opinions of a number of architects I've talked with.  I was under the impression that most architects prefer a moderately rolling, rectangular site that allows more creativity and ease of construction over one whose elevations tend to dictate the location of holes and positioning of major design features (greens, hazards, tees), absent a Fazio-size budget.
 

Lou:

What do you mean by a "technically superior routing" ?  Are you just talking about varying the holes in terms of distance and direction on paper?  Almost anybody here could do that, I think.

My idea of a good site is one that gives you a lot of features to utilize in the design.  It doesn't have to be hills -- it could be trees, water hazards, little abrupt elevation changes, small ripples, etc.

I spent about an hour out on this site a year ago February.  It didn't have much of any of those things.  It's sandy, but fairly flat and only a few feet above water table / sea level.  There is a pretty lagoon at the bottom end, but there could be some major environmental setbacks from it.  There is one strong stand of trees about 75 m from the lagoon ... so depending on the setbacks, you will either get a couple of beautiful holes between the trees and the lagoon, or you won't be able to fit a fairway in there and the trees will block the view toward the lagoon and ocean.

I am shocked that people are floating ideas designed to get this course some attention.  It is going to host The Olympic Games -- how could it get any more attention than that?  Pretty much everything that anyone has said about it for two years now has been an attempt to get the design job or influence who will get it.

Anthony Gray


  If I am reading Tom Doak correctly, because the site is flat it is not good, and a techincally superior routing won't make much of a difference.  It is a curious perspective that appears to run counter to intuition and the opinions of a number of architects I've talked with.  I was under the impression that most architects prefer a moderately rolling, rectangular site that allows more creativity and ease of construction over one whose elevations tend to dictate the location of holes and positioning of major design features (greens, hazards, tees), absent a Fazio-size budget.
 

Lou:

What do you mean by a "technically superior routing" ?  Are you just talking about varying the holes in terms of distance and direction on paper?  Almost anybody here could do that, I think.

My idea of a good site is one that gives you a lot of features to utilize in the design.  It doesn't have to be hills -- it could be trees, water hazards, little abrupt elevation changes, small ripples, etc.

I spent about an hour out on this site a year ago February.  It didn't have much of any of those things.  It's sandy, but fairly flat and only a few feet above water table / sea level.  There is a pretty lagoon at the bottom end, but there could be some major environmental setbacks from it.  There is one strong stand of trees about 75 m from the lagoon ... so depending on the setbacks, you will either get a couple of beautiful holes between the trees and the lagoon, or you won't be able to fit a fairway in there and the trees will block the view toward the lagoon and ocean.

I am shocked that people are floating ideas designed to get this course some attention.  It is going to host The Olympic Games -- how could it get any more attention than that?  Pretty much everything that anyone has said about it for two years now has been an attempt to get the design job or influence who will get it.

  Would you take the job if they offered it to you Tom?

  Anthony


Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
So the site is basically like Royal Worlington & Newmarket? :)

I like this idea and the fact that so many great stars of the sport are willing to check their egos at the door and help for free for the good of the Olympic ideals. Let's take them up on their offer and build that committee - they should come together and volunteer their time to ... make up a jury that selects the winning entry! Which of course cannot come from any of the guys in the jury!

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
There is a pretty lagoon at the bottom end, but there could be some major environmental setbacks from it.

I never imagined that brazil would have major environmental laws. 
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Ian Andrew

« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 07:20:44 PM by Ian Andrew »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1


  Would you take the job if they offered it to you Tom?

  Anthony



Anthony:

Yes, I would.  It would be a once-in-a-lifetime situation, and I like to participate in those.  But I would be vary wary of all the politics involved.  And I haven't pursued the project because I think it's too much of a political football; the decision will likely be based not on merit but on politics.  Politics just aren't my thing.

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