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Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Palmer Design downsizes again...
« on: August 08, 2011, 06:47:34 PM »
Ron Whitten of Golf Digest has the details on the changes at Palmer Design, which is now down to only two employees besides the King:

http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/blogs/wheres-matty-g/2011/08/palmer-design-downsized.html#entry-more
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Ian Andrew

Re: Palmer Design downsizes again...
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2011, 10:09:08 PM »
Never thought I would see that news...

It makes me wonder what is going to be left of the biggest firms in two to three years....

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Palmer Design downsizes again...
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2011, 10:24:25 PM »
Ian,
It sort of tells you where the big firms will be.  Past employees will become subcontractors.  If they can get a job without the signature name then they will but they will also sell the signature as needed.  It will be an interesting time because IMHO when you have been with a signature firm you only see jobs acquired in one way.  BUT when you have to try and acquire work the way guys like you and me have had to then it can become interesting.  I don't wish any firm or person bad luck in this business but I think the hardest segment of the business right now is to go from being a long term employee of a top signature firm.  A guy that has been around for 20-30 yers with his own name on his own projects has an easier road in so many cases.  Plus most of us saw the other side of the business long before the big boys had to. 
the other element you see creeping in is the construction element. It used to be a "no-no" We are all going to do both elements.  Golf design as it was known for the last 30 years is done.
NOTE:  the above comments were meant to be taken as general comments toward signature firms downsizing not AP in particular.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Palmer Design downsizes again...
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2011, 10:33:11 PM »
Ian
What is left now?
Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Palmer Design downsizes again...
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2011, 11:46:48 PM »
soon it will be just Arnie with a pen and paper.....

Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Palmer Design downsizes again...
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2011, 09:21:58 AM »
Mike,
All true but....he does come away with a boat load of contacts and, Hey I can give you the same product for 20 percent of the price. Six months no compete is nothing. i knew they were in trouble, the project they talk about in the article in Uruguay is a former client that asked me to take a fifty percent reduction in fee and had a very very limited overall construction budget and I passed. When I got the news that they signed with AP, I thought that maybe the AP group might be in trouble.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Palmer Design downsizes again...
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2011, 09:35:09 AM »
I feel sorry for the guys who lost their jobs, but in the bigger scheme of things is the passing of the torch from the big name design firms of the past 20-30 years to the next generation such a bad thing?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Lester George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Palmer Design downsizes again...
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2011, 09:48:03 AM »
Mike,

As usual, you are spot on with your comments.  I have seen this coming for a couple of years.  Especially personal because I discussed working for AP with Ed Seay in 1990.  We came closer than most people know.  Good luck to Erik.

Lester

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Palmer Design downsizes again...
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2011, 10:01:41 AM »
Good luck to Erik as well.  It will be interesting to see how it all unfolds.

One question, as I really don't recall.  Did the big downsizings at JN and TF get equal coverage?  TD managed to keep his downsizing pretty quiet until a few former associates got some plum jobs.  Pete Dye never had to downsize because he always worked the contract labor route.

For the record, I have downsized to three (me, myself and I!) and also have a former employee working contract drafting for me.  He lives elsewhere, but with our working relationship, a few phone calls and the ability to transfer large files over the internet, it really makes little difference.

Over the years, I always had a mix of employees and contract labor because in a small biz, you can run one employee heavy in good times to provide excellent service.  But you really have to watch payroll at most times, so having a few regular irregular contract guys around helps because you only pay them when you have work, or when they bring in work.   I haven't heard of any golf design firms farming drafting out to India yet, but I know several have checked it out.

That part has never changed, other than having 4 architects and 2 contract labor guys in the hey day and 0 and 1 (actually I have 2) now.  Employees hanging around full time are generally the easiest since there is no re-training, but having a former employee, especially a guy like Erik, working for you part time is the next easiest.

The only problem for Erik is serving two masters.  If he is looking for work himself and looking for Palmer, he will probably have to craft a sales pitch of "I was AP for design purposes, so you can have me at XXX or the King at 4XXX."   I recall Bob Cupp used to subtly market similarly when he first went on his own.  I heard he would say "Every time you say my name, you can say Nicklaus", for free!  Not quite that easy, and on grand openings from JN, but obviously, some guys will buy that pitch.

Overall, what a fragmented business it will become.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Palmer Design downsizes again...
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2011, 11:17:55 AM »
TD managed to keep his downsizing pretty quiet until a few former associates got some plum jobs. 

Jeff:

I kept it quiet only because Jim and I never really agreed on what we should say about it, and I wanted to let him frame it his own way, within reason.

There is still a chance that Jim and/or Bruce will work with us again on a particular project, such as Bruce running the job at Streamsong this past year.  But, I have advised both that it would be nuts on their part to try and solicit work for "us" together, because most clients would take that as a sign that they aren't confident in their own abilities.  It's more likely that I would go back to them when we get busy and are spread too thin -- and believe it or not, that might be the case one of these days. 

Perhaps unlike Arnold Palmer, I have very little interest in just letting an associate do a job and taking a chunk of the fee for sticking my name on it.  If I'd wanted to do that, I would have kept everyone on and pretended I did everything on every job, as most big-name firms do.  In contrast, my main reason for downsizing is that I did not anticipate that we would find many jobs in the next few years that excited me, and that a high percentage of them would be in places overseas where my two former senior associates had no interest in working.  And the problem is that if the other associates were going to cover the tough jobs, then they deserved to be first in line for the occasional U.S. job such as Dismal River, too.  They are certainly ready for that opportunity.

It is hard to run a big firm in the best of times, and nearly impossible when the business starts contracting.

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Palmer Design downsizes again...
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2011, 02:58:31 PM »
I'm a little surprised considering Palmer has such a name and possibly didn't follow the path to Asia for work.   Sure the North American market has dried up but Asia has showed they have at least a heart rate and there are a few new jobs.  Possibly Palmer didn't have a person or office in Asia?

Ian Andrew

Re: Palmer Design downsizes again...
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2011, 03:38:10 PM »
I'm a little surprised considering Palmer has such a name and possibly didn't follow the path to Asia for work.   Sure the North American market has dried up but Asia has showed they have at least a heart rate and there are a few new jobs.  Possibly Palmer didn't have a person or office in Asia?

It's not an easy market.
The culture is different and nuances matter.

Plus it costs a lot of money to chase work (particularly overseas) and perhaps Palmer doesn't want the short term financial loss at his age.
If something comes - good - if it doesn't - so what...
No or low overhead allows patience on what you do.
Staff are overhead.


It just sucks when you've given 20 plus years and then get thrown aside because of a downturn....

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Palmer Design downsizes again...
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2011, 04:06:28 PM »

It just sucks when you've given 20 plus years and then get thrown aside because of a downturn....

Ian:

I understand this view, but you have chosen not to be an employer.  If you were, perhaps you would see there is another side to it.  Nobody in this business can ever have the promise of lifetime employment, as the market is now proving.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Palmer Design downsizes again...
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2011, 04:12:02 PM »
Ian,

There were many times I skipped paychecks to pay the employees, which they never knew and don't remember if they did.  Yeah it sucks, and I know some of my former employees thought I was there to give them a job for life, but it just doesn't work out that way. 

For one, those cost of living increases make a 20 year veteran designer way overpriced.  Second, the market always flucuates.  Third, I tried. 
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Palmer Design downsizes again...
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2011, 04:30:59 PM »
I guess I didn't realize Arnold Palmer Design was still designing courses. Have they opened anything lately in the states?

Ian Andrew

Re: Palmer Design downsizes again...
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2011, 06:54:18 PM »
Sorry boys - I realized that may have come across as critical - and it wasn't meant to be.
I was trying to indicate there's a huge emotional trauma to find out you are no longer required.
I was looking it from an employee's perspective.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Palmer Design downsizes again...
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2011, 07:21:57 PM »
I think the harder adjustment is the most subtle one of all -- the journey from the creative safety and plausible deniability of being the one who merely executes someone else's vision, to the new (and lonely and uncertain) world of realizing and creating a vision (and a design) all of one's own.  Many of us duck out of ever making that transition, and we come up with a whole host of reasons/excuses why....but I think it's mainly because we're daunted by the responsibility, and (maybe more so) because we have a sneaking suspicion that, after so many years of secretly questioning and criticizing another man's ideals, we may find that we ourselves are lacking in any ideals at all.

Peter
I'm not speaking of anyone referenced in this thread; I don't know anyone involved, and wish them all well.  I am just stating what I think is a general/basic issue.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Palmer Design downsizes again...
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2011, 07:42:20 PM »
Peter,

You are right in a way. I liken it to assistant coaches getting a shot to be the top guy. Many make it, but many more find out they were really better slotted in the second position.

Ian,

You didn't come off as critical, and TD answered more sensibly than I.  If there is any consolation in being laid off, I would imagine that having so many other millions in the same boat would be it right now.

Craig,

I don't know what Palmer has opening right now in the States.  I just saw a KMPG email/newsletter saying 50 courses opened last year.  I doubt I could name three, so I wonder where they got their stats.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Palmer Design downsizes again...
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2011, 07:44:47 PM »
I think the harder adjustment is the most subtle one of all -- the journey from the creative safety and plausible deniability of being the one who merely executes someone else's vision, to the new (and lonely and uncertain) world of realizing and creating a vision (and a design) all of one's own.  Many of us duck out of ever making that transition, and we come up with a whole host of reasons/excuses why....but I think it's mainly because we're daunted by the responsibility, and (maybe more so) because we have a sneaking suspicion that, after so many years of secretly questioning and criticizing another man's ideals, we may find that we ourselves are lacking in any ideals at all.

Those who have never drawn on a personal line of credit to make payroll won't really get this!

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Palmer Design downsizes again...
« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2011, 10:59:19 AM »
Those who have never drawn on a personal line of credit to make payroll won't really get this!

That is why the vast majority of us depend on someone else for our livelihoods.  Working 100 hour weeks, being tethered to a communications device, and living the business 24/7 requires a level of commitment and personal/character constitution that few in the "social justice" community can comprehend.

Re: AP, could it be that in the absence of his long-time design partner and no family members following in the business, that he is recognizing the inevitabilities of age?  From what I hear, he still likes to play a lot of golf with the members at Bay Hill.  He doesn't need the money and he's probably weary of the travel. 

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Palmer Design downsizes again...
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2011, 11:09:47 AM »
Jeff,

   Is that 50 courses world wide?  Surely we didn't have 50 courses open in the US last year.


paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Palmer Design downsizes again...
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2011, 08:56:18 PM »
Lou Duran... "Working 100 hour weeks, being tethered to a communications device, and living the business 24/7 requires a level of commitment and personal/character constitution that few in the "social justice" community can comprehend."...Amen brother.

paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca