[Garland Bayley]

Since my name was mentioned, and an opinion of NGLA was associated with my name, allow me to clarify an apparent misconception.
I did not think NGLA was a very difficult golf course, but I thoroughly enjoyed playing it, and I have said so on many occasions.
I have never questioned why anyone else liked the coursei. I get it, and I fully understand why people enjoy playing it.
NGLA and Shinnecock are two totally different golf courses, and I think very highly of both, but for different reasons.   Neither is perfect, but both are must plays, imho.   

Thanks for the clarification although it leads to another question. Since neither of these two are perfect, is there a perfect course out there?

The perfect one would be the one sitting between those two!

[Jim Franklin]

Jim
To answer your question, I can only give you my opinion, which is nothing more than that...just my opinion.
I would have to say that I have not seen or read of a perfect course to date.    The evaluating of courses is just so subjective and solely based on the rules/premises that the person doing the ranking has developed in studying/playing courses.   That is what makes golf architecture so  interesting.   What I might like may be totally different than what you might like...and neither is wrong, except to the other person. 
I do believe that when designing courses on certain dramatic sites, an architect can take a safe approach and produce 18 solid holes that would probably not gender any controversy.    However, there may be some really fantastic holes that could have been missed in that routing, but the designer would have to possibly accept a lesser hole(s) around it, just to get to that location on the site.   A possible example of that would be Cypress Point, imho..    15, 16 and certainly the green site at 17 might never have been part of the routing, unless something most likely average was to happen at the finishing hole, which was the result, imho.    So, as great as CP is, and I do have it ranked very high, it is also less than perfect imho.........that doesn't mean however, that when all the options are sorted out, which is what the designer has to do when routing, that the resulting course isn't the very best that could be laid on that parcel of land for the objective presented....and I am not making an evaluation one way or the other on that, because I haven't studied the property enough to know.   I do know that I love the place, and that is all that really matters.

Thanks, I appreciate your insight.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Since my name was mentioned, and an opinion of NGLA was associated with my name, allow me to clarify an apparent misconception.

I did not think NGLA was a very difficult golf course, but I thoroughly enjoyed playing it, and I have said so on many occasions.

Jim,

I think we'd agree that NGLA doesn't provide the challenge provided by WFW, Oak Tree, Oakmont and others.
But, those courses represent a challenge associated with and specifically prepared for, the greatest golfers in the world.
Those courses represent a "culture" of challenge at the highest level, a challenge that's been refined and upgraded for decades and decades.

NGLA chose a different path.
NGLA may have started off on the same path, but, somewhere along the line, the "arms race" to challenge the greatest golfers in the world was abandoned in favor of presenting a reasonable challenge for member play.

And, while we're at it, lets face it, the only difference in presenting a challenge for the membership and a challenge for the greatest golfers in the world is one item and one item only........ LENGTH.

Shinnecock, WFW, Oakmont, Oak Tree and others, from the members tees, don't present a significant challenge for the greatest golfers in the world either.  It is length that triggers the quantum leap.

NGLA, by choice or design, followed a path that differed from the clubs that chose to continue to challenge the greatest golfers in the world. 

So when you say that NGLA isn't a difficult golf course, I say, for whom ?

Certainly it offers sufficient challenge to its members and their guests.
Certainly it offers sufficient challenge to those competing in the "Singles Tournament"
Whether or not it offers sufficient challenge to a select group of the best amateur golfers in the UK and US remains to be seen in 2013.

That's one of the reasons I've advocated for additional length on holes # 7 and # 18.
Modern I&B have allowed the golfer to avoid architectural features that were designed to interface with their play.
Adding length to those holes will restore elements of the intended interfacing.

I don't think courses should be judged by the degree of difficulty from the back tees, but, I understand the context in which you made the comment.


I have never questioned why anyone else liked the coursei. I get it, and I fully understand why people enjoy playing it.

NGLA and Shinnecock are two totally different golf courses, and I think very highly of both, but for different reasons.   Neither is perfect, but both are must plays, imho.   

[Bill_McBride]

Patrick, how do you think the USGA will set up NGLA for the 2013 Walker Cup?

[Ronald Montesano]

Is it possible to Keiser-fy NGLA, as in, add some fairly hidden extra tees for length or angle, not for everyday use?

[Jim Nugent]

Jim
So, as great as CP is, and I do have it ranked very high, it is also less than perfect imho...

I don't think I've ever seen a list of your top ten or twenty.  Would you be willing to post it? 

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I have a Medicare card. Am I eligible for membership? In the alternative, is there a Medicare card holder event this year?

[JWL]

Jim,
I don't think I am capable of coming up with at top 10 or 20, or whatever.
I am really a big tent kind of guy when it comes to course evaluation.   Instead of trying to decide if one course is better (whatever that means) than another, my tendency is to look more at what the land had to offer and how well I perceive the designer did with that piece of land.   Some of the best designs I have seen are probably not ones that would make a best of list, but I enjoyed them because the constraints were so overwhelming, that if a course was designed and constructed such that I enjoyed playing the course, then I give it a high mark.     Obviously, there are certain courses that have been very well done on great pieces of property, and those are the ones that are usually at the top of ranking list, and top of my list also....Cypress Point (maybe the greatest golf course site ever), Pine Valley, The Old Course (just the uniqueness of it) Pebble Beach (although this is one that I reallly don't think maximized the routing potential) but the site was just too good to miss.    I find myself thinking very highly of certain courses while I am there and playing them, so I really am not one to ask about a fixed top ten courses.    I know that when I play Cabo del Sol, I am rarely disappointed.   When I play Spring Creek Ranch outside Memphis Tenn, I am rarely disappointed. (this is a course few here have probably every heard of, but it is one of my favorite courses)  I am sure many here have many of the same favorite courses that would never make a top ten list.    Great designs don't always happen just on the great properties, but when they do, then they usually achieve 'greatness' in the eyes of those that think about such things.   However, there is a lot of very good design that happens on marginal properties, just to get an enjoyable course on the site.   I appreciate that a lot.
So, no Ranking list will ever come from me....too many good ones out there to say one is better than another.

[Jim Franklin]

Alright, I will say it for you, Rock Creek Cattle Company is the best .




















//

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

NGLA is a creative intelligent mans course. Both it and Shinny are great thinking man 's courses in fact.

[George Pazin]

Alright, I will say it for you, Rock Creek Cattle Company is the best .

I know you're kidding, but I can't be the only one who'd like to hear your thoughts on a comparison between RCCC and NGLA, or RCCC and Shinnecock.

[jkinney]

Re: Shinnecock v NGLA - from the normal member's tees is Shinnecock harder / more of a slog / less fun than NGLA?

They are about the same degree of difficulty from the members' tees unless one consistently hits drives out into the fescue at Shinny. It's from the back tees where Shinny really stands out.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Re: Shinnecock v NGLA - from the normal member's tees is Shinnecock harder / more of a slog / less fun than NGLA?

They are about the same degree of difficulty from the members' tees unless one consistently hits drives out into the fescue at Shinny. It's from the back tees where Shinny really stands out.

JK, 

And those back tees on many holes were initially constructed or lengthened in preparation for the 1986 U.S. Open

[jkinney]

Pat - The further back you go at Shinny, the better the course sets up. I play the Open tees once a year (usually around 90-92 shots) and find that all the character of the holes comes out in full. What a championship test !

[Mike H]

Having never played either course are there many forced carries on either course?  When I hear "old mans course" I think a short course where someone can bounce balls into all of the greens.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Having never played either course are there many forced carries on either course?  When I hear "old mans course" I think a short course where someone can bounce balls into all of the greens.

Mike,

At NGLA, it depends upon the route you choose.

There can be forced carries on various shots at # 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 10, 14, 16 and 17

[Mike Hendren]

One isn't better than the other, although one may be prefered over the other, depending on your tastes and mood.

I disagree.  While I prefer National Golf Links of America, Shinnecock Hills is a superior golf course in my opinion because it made me wish I was a better golfer.  It is unrelenting, yet right there in front of you.

Mike

[Bill_McBride]

Having never played either course are there many forced carries on either course?  When I hear "old mans course" I think a short course where someone can bounce balls into all of the greens.

Mike,

At NGLA, it depends upon the route you choose.

There can be forced carries on various shots at # 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 10, 14, 16 and 17

13 is certainly always a forced carry!

Depending on the line you choose, there is almost always a way to bounce the ball on the green at most of those holes.   Of course not necessarily at the pin location. 

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