[Kalen Braley]

Mark,

I had forgot about 13 in my criticisms of the greens at PR.  I shall re-state and that it has one green with interesting undulations.

I also agree that it seems odd because the hole is already a beast due to its length.  4 isn't a bad score on this hole.

[Garland Bayley]

Why do I remember 13 being downhill, but yet you say uphill?

[Mark Saltzman]

Why do I remember 13 being downhill, but yet you say uphill?

I think that the hole was actually fairly flat elevation-wise.  I should amend my post.

[Kalen Braley]

Its downhill off the tee and then back uphill to the green..not sure what the net difference is though!!

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 14: Par 4, 401 Yards

Lots of room right and penal bunkers left.  Most tee shots will feed off the sloping fairway to one of two fairway collection areas leaving a short iron into the green.

Mr. Freeman, I suspect you will not like the placement of the cart path on this hole either!





From the start of the fairway, the dramatic contouring of the fairway is obvious:




The approach is uphill with two fronting bunkers protecting the left side of the green:




Contouring right of the green (more obvious in the behind picture) will allow players to find the middle of the green without challenging the bunkers:






Hole 15: Par 4, 345 Yards

The hole plays sub-300 yards from all but the back two sets, where the angle off the tee is significantly different.

From the white tee (298 yards)




From the blue tee (345 yards).  The green is still within reach for the longest of hitters, but for the shorter hitter (like myself), there is little interest off the tee as the only real choice is to play right of all of the bunkers.  I like this hole better from the forward sets.




The view from right/behind the fairway bunkers (lay-up tee shots):




From left of fairway bunkers:




Holy contouring Batman!  I spent a few minutes messing around on this green.  Depending on green speeds, slopes right and long-right of the green can be used to feed balls all the way down to the front-left.

[Kalen Braley]

Mark,

I really thought 15 was a terrific hole from the blue tees.  Really makes one choose which line they are going to try..and there are lots of them.

And yes 15 had a least a few tiny humps in it, but all and all was still pretty darn flat.

[Mark Saltzman]

Mark,

I really thought 15 was a terrific hole from the blue tees.  Really makes one choose which line they are going to try..and there are lots of them.

And yes 15 had a least a few tiny humps in it, but all and all was still pretty darn flat.

Kalen,

Are you saying you prefer 15 from the longer (left) tees?  I much preferred from the shorter (right) tees.  I actually had a choice to make from there.  From the left all I could do was lay-up.

And I think to say 15 had "a few tiny humps" would be selling it short.  While the most significant contouring is actually off the green on the sideboards and backboard, the green is still highly contoured.

[Kalen Braley]

Mark,

I actually did like it better from the blues...and I have played it from both. And thats not to say, it isn't good from the whites either.

The way I saw it from the whites was fundamentally, do I go left or right.  So two options is certainly cool.

But from the blues I saw several more.  

1)  You can play totally safe from the blues and go right of the 1st bunker on the right
2)  You can get a bit more daring and play just short of the 1st two bunkers on the right
3)  Or you can blast a tee ball over those 1st two bunkers.
4)  Or you can challenge the green and aim just left of the last bunker.
5)  Or if you are really long off the tee, you can aim long of the green and have a "safer" play at the green.

Overall from the blues there are a lot more "bite off as much as you can chew" options where you have to get the line and the distance right...whereas from the whites it basically comes down to take the left path or take the right path.

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 16: Par 3, 119 Yards

And so begins a rather poor finish to a good golf course.

Hole 16 feels like a bit of filler, needing to get the player from 15 to 17.  A simple, short par 3, with a medium sized flat green and little trouble.  It is a rather exposed area so I suppose if the wind is really blowing it would make the hole more interesting, but nonetheless I think more could (and should) have been done with this hole.










Hole 17: Par 5, 501 Yards

The tee shot on 17 is semi-blind, though there are enough visual clues that player knows that right is better.




For the second shot, the player must choose if he wants to challenge the water and go for the green in two, or lay back and aim for the wide part of the fairway.  Another well-placed bunker just over the water ensures that a player cannot waffle on his decision.  Either lay-up or go for it as something in between will mean trouble.




From 75 yards out




Contouring left of the green allows a player to find the putting surface without challenging the water.  It also means that a player going for the green in two has a bit of a backstop and a reward for challenging and carrying the water.




The lake itself is not ugly and it adds interest to the hole, but it just doesn't fit with the rest of the golf course.







Hole 18: Par 5, 518 Yards

Hole 18 looks a heck of a lot like 9.  The fairway bunker provides a pretty good aiming point for most players.  Shots that bail right are fine too.




From the start of the fairway it is more obvious how much room there is to bail right of the bunker.




After a tee shot in the fairway, the player has to choose if he wants to challenge (yet another) well-placed fairway bunker.  The fairway narrows considerably at the fairway bunker so if one cannot carry it, the smart play is likely to lay-up to it.




The view from short of the fairway bunker:




From long-right of the fairway bunker the green is more inviting and less blind:




Looking back:

[Garland Bayley]

The lake itself is not ugly and it adds interest to the hole, but it just doesn't fit with the rest of the golf course.

Now Mark, you took the picture from its good side. From the other direction walking towards the hole, I thought it one of the ugliest eyesores I have seen on any course where some money was put into creating it. There are ranchers in Montana that have better looking stock ponds.

[Mark Saltzman]

The lake itself is not ugly and it adds interest to the hole, but it just doesn't fit with the rest of the golf course.

Now Mark, you took the picture from its good side. From the other direction walking towards the hole, I thought it one of the ugliest eyesores I have seen on any course where some money was put into creating it. There are ranchers in Montana that have better looking stock ponds.

Garland,

The funny thing is that I remembered the pond being ugly an I was going to write that but looking at my pictures it looks darned pretty so I figured I must be mistaken.

Ok, the pond is ugly. But, it does add to strategy without being overly penal.

[Garland Bayley]

The lake itself is not ugly and it adds interest to the hole, but it just doesn't fit with the rest of the golf course.

Now Mark, you took the picture from its good side. From the other direction walking towards the hole, I thought it one of the ugliest eyesores I have seen on any course where some money was put into creating it. There are ranchers in Montana that have better looking stock ponds.

Garland,

The funny thing is that I remembered the pond being ugly an I was going to write that but looking at my pictures it looks darned pretty so I figured I must be mistaken.

Ok, the pond is ugly. But, it does add to strategy without being overly penal. For someone of your talents

[Mark Saltzman]

The lake itself is not ugly and it adds interest to the hole, but it just doesn't fit with the rest of the golf course.

Now Mark, you took the picture from its good side. From the other direction walking towards the hole, I thought it one of the ugliest eyesores I have seen on any course where some money was put into creating it. There are ranchers in Montana that have better looking stock ponds.

Garland,

The funny thing is that I remembered the pond being ugly an I was going to write that but looking at my pictures it looks darned pretty so I figured I must be mistaken.

Ok, the pond is ugly. But, it does add to strategy without being overly penal. For someone of your talents

Oh come on, Garland.  Unless you are against all man-made water hazards (which it seems you may be), then you have to admit this one still provides options for the higher handicapper.  No one need challenge the water.  There is plenty of width on the lay-up and there are sideboards left of the green allowing the player to aim away from the water and still find the putting surface.

[Garland Bayley]

The high handicapper usually has little control of which side of the fairway his drive ends up on (if it even ends up in the fairway). That means on this dogleg, a high percentage of the time he is faced with a forced carry over water on the second. This is not a shot the high handicapper is quite adept at.

Need I quote Ross, MacKenzie, Doak, etc on artificial water hazards and ponds to you?

How about Bayley? "A stream I can accidentally miss, a pond allows no such result."

[Kalen Braley]

While the pond on 17 certainly isn't the ugliest pond I've seen on a golf course...by a long shot....

...I would agree that the 17th was the worst hole on the course because it was so out of character with everything else.  The drive was ho-hum to a wide open fairway.  The green isn't even tempting for most players as they can't make the carry across the pond.  It was an easy par on both occasions I played it, but overall just a boring hole with little interest.

On to 18 though.  I felt 18 was a better hole than 9 because the angle of the diagonal to the fairway was closer to 45 degrees.  So one really has to pick their line carefully on the tee.   Combine this with an actual interesting green and a demanding layup shot and 18 is a decent hole/fun finish.

P.S.  I think 9 and 18 were both part of the original 9 hole routing that was there before the new course.  You can still see one of the holes that is now the driving range.  You can see those two holes here on Google maps.  Looks like 18 played down the hill to a green where the tee is, and #9 back up the hill to where one of the practices areas are.

http://maps.google.com/?ll=46.738537,-117.143269&spn=0.012117,0.026329&t=h&z=16&vpsrc=6

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