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Mike Nuzzo

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Do any great holes not look great from above?
« on: August 07, 2011, 10:12:45 PM »
For starters, one doesn't play golf from an aircraft.

Kyle made this comment on another thread.
Aside from Ben Sims who does play from an aircraft..
Who can describe or show a picture of a great hole that doesn't look great from above?

Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Kyle Harris

Re: Do any great holes not look great from above?
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2011, 10:17:33 PM »
Mike:

I think most Par 3s would fit this bill - especially the MacRayNor templates as they require the context of the ground game to make them special.

One would not be able to discern a Redan from a hole with an angled front bunker, for example.

Matthew Sander

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Re: Do any great holes not look great from above?
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2011, 10:19:48 PM »
How about the 18th at Riviera? From above, it looks to be choked on the right by trees and on the left by the property boundary. It actually looks like you could park your tee shot in a backyard pretty easily instead of the left rough being on such a steep uphill slope. You don't get any sense of the slope of the fairway or green for that matter. The steep slope with thick kikuyu left of the green looks like any other flat area of rough from above. I've never played there, but I gather that most of the challenge of the hole has to do with all of the changes in elevation and slope.

10 on the other hand still looks fantastic...

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Do any great holes not look great from above?
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2011, 10:20:17 PM »
I have to say that I thought Wolf Nuzzo looked like a wound held together by butterfly bandages. I have never been a fan of pictures from outside the golfers perspective.  A photog with a ladder is one who puts himself above the architecture.

Scott Warren

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Re: Do any great holes not look great from above?
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2011, 10:21:15 PM »
A lot of links courses don't look like much from the air, especially those that use ground contours a lot, often in place of bunkers.

Look at an aerial of R. Cinque Ports and you will see what I mean.

Mike Nuzzo

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Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Geoffrey_Walsh

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Re: Do any great holes not look great from above?
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2011, 10:36:11 PM »
Someone awhile back posted a picture of the second at PV which looked awful.  Looked like it belonged at Shore Gate, not an all world par 4 at PV.

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Do any great holes not look great from above?
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2011, 10:37:44 PM »
Mike,

I found the aerial to be distracting. The shape and colors of the bridges was offensive. I mean really, what can be good about the thought of an open wound?  Please post a link so we can see if I am wrong.

Geoffrey_Walsh

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Re: Do any great holes not look great from above?
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2011, 10:42:09 PM »


What do those that have played here think of this hole?  Cramped as it looks in the picture or no? 

Any good stories about playing out of those ruts along either side of the fairway?  They Look menacing to me.


Alex Miller

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Re: Do any great holes not look great from above?
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2011, 10:47:39 PM »
While Fishers Island is along the coast, it looks entirely different in the ground level photos I've seen on this site compared to Google Earth, in a good way.

Scott Warren

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Re: Do any great holes not look great from above?
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2011, 10:48:57 PM »
Mike N:

That aerial can't do the landforms justice. The short par four sixth looks dull from above, but in fact it's one of the world's most exciting holes.

Bill_McBride

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Re: Do any great holes not look great from above?
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2011, 11:00:23 PM »
One of the really hard things about looking at aerials to study holes is how the shadows of trees can look like trees. 

Ben Sims

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Re: Do any great holes not look great from above?
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2011, 11:31:17 PM »
Mike,

Last weekend I was off station with a jet for the weekend.  When I've got a relatively good student, I can spend some time staring out the canopy.  We flew over Rawls, Vaquero, Dallas National, Carlton Woods and a few others.  I think there are two things that standout when I'm looking at golf holes when I'm flying.

1)  Bad golf holes never look good from the air.  But sometimes great golf holes look mundane from above.

2)  Even when you're low, you can't tell jack about the green.  Flying over the Rawls, you're struck at these huge fairways and tiny greens.  Then you're on the ground and it's not that big a deal.

In the end, it's hard to tell much from the air.  Odd that you would start this thread, because Wolf Point from the air is like a lot of great links golf holes...not very complicated from above but so good when it's 3D.
 
« Last Edit: August 07, 2011, 11:32:57 PM by Ben Sims »

Kalen Braley

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Re: Do any great holes not look great from above?
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2011, 12:49:52 AM »
I've always thought Bandon Trails had the best looking holes at the resort based on aerials.  Perhaps its because its routed thru more forest areas.

And Pac Dunes never looked that impressive either for the satellite view...many of the holes seem to blend in to each other.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Bandon,+OR&hl=en&ll=43.189721,-124.382401&spn=0.03811,0.094414&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=42.224734,63.193359&t=h&z=14

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: Do any great holes not look great from above?
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2011, 01:22:46 AM »
Ben
It was obvious to me that some of those pictures posted in the other thread were dreadful (for/to me).
So I am trying out a worst case analysis or something similar - maybe they'll all be twix candy bars... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHbYOwkJPpA

I agree about the greens from above.  My favorites at The Rawls were 2, 7 & 12 - they look very good from above.
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=the+rawls+golf+course+texas&hl=en&ll=33.604978,-101.891515&spn=0.003485,0.006797&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=55.323926,77.871094&t=h&z=18
It helps that one can see the drainage patterns

Geoffrey
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Pine+Valley+Golf+Club,+Pine+Valley,+New+Jersey&hl=en&ll=39.791086,-74.973777&spn=0.003215,0.004753&sll=33.549407,-101.824722&sspn=0.22318,0.304184&t=k&z=18
Yes that does look silly, but maybe only the tee shot.
From the approach to the green looks great - but I am also contaminated as I've seen it in person.
That green is (was - WTF?!?) all world.

Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Mark Alexander

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do any great holes not look great from above?
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2011, 05:58:45 AM »
Mike,

On my first visit to Royal County Down I, like many before me, visited the pro shop where the walls are filled with aerial shots of the famous links. As I planned to shoot the course the following morning, I took great interest in the images which were suitably dramatic. What they didn't show was the impressive dune system that defines RCD and creates the corridors down which the beautiful holes weave. Needless to say, I cancelled my 5am helicopter ride and shot the course on foot.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Do any great holes not look great from above?
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2011, 08:52:18 AM »
Mike:  I think a lot of great holes would look pretty plain from an aerial view.  I noticed this when we were doing diagrams for The Anatomy of a Golf Course.  Does the 8th hole at Crystal Downs look like the best par-5 in the world in an aerial?

I do look out the window a lot when I'm flying around and I am amazed at how easy it is to spot modern courses with their bigger and more prolific bunkering.  I think it's because a lot of these courses were designed on paper, as opposed to older courses, and there are more features to make it look interesting in plan view.  If courses are designed on site, many features look strange or dull from the air.


Anthony Gray

Re: Do any great holes not look great from above?
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2011, 08:56:35 AM »


  Cape Kidnappers is much more dramatic from the sky.

  Anthony


Mark McKeever

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Re: Do any great holes not look great from above?
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2011, 09:19:55 AM »


What do those that have played here think of this hole?  Cramped as it looks in the picture or no? 

Any good stories about playing out of those ruts along either side of the fairway?  They Look menacing to me.


I hit the green from one of the bunkers on the right.  My caddie was strongly against it! 

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: Do any great holes not look great from above?
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2011, 09:46:52 AM »
Tom
I would have never guessed the 8th is the best par 5 on the planet from above - nice choice.
http://maps.google.com/?ll=44.698128,-86.235176&spn=0.006139,0.013593&t=k&z=17
But it would be hard to not notice the 7th green and realize something is going on down there...
It is unfortunate paper designs don't get changed in the field when they see what they look like on the ground.

Mark
Royal County Down is a good example of a great course that would never be designed on paper - with those little bunkers - it wouldn't have enough ritz.
To me the whole course looks great from above.
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Do any great holes not look great from above?
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2011, 10:37:51 AM »
I agree with TD on this one - planning on paper, while necessary, tends to or can lead to great looking holes from the airplane that don't work at all on the ground.  When I had young guys coming in to the office, that was a very hard thing to teach them.

I recall getting scolded at Killian and Nugent for apparently sleeping on the job, but I was just laying my head on the table to stare up the centerline of a golf hole plan I had drawn to better envision it.  With computers and 3D you can do it better, and get it closer, but the field is the final test.  I also recall an employee of mine blaming the software for some pimply looking mounds and blind greens, until I showed him it wasn't the software output, but his input.  He tended to draw pimply mounds and when we extended his contours from 3:1 to 6:1 the software did just fine!

Back on topic, I suspect that there are many great holes that look average from the air.  For instance, any hole that relies on ground slope for its challenge over the more visible bunkers.  Something like the 8th at Prairie Dunes, for example, but I am certain there are many, many more.


I also look out of airplane windows and have learned a lot, BTW.  One thing I noticed flying into Long Island years ago was how much depth bunkers had from front to back, and how simple many front edges were on those older, classic courses.  Drawing on plan, many gca's draw pretty small bunkers with squiggly shapes.  In the fiedl, all those do is turn out to be partially blind, looking like thre bunkers instead of one.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2011, 10:40:41 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Nuzzo

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Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Bill Brightly

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Re: Do any great holes not look great from above? New
« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2011, 10:59:06 AM »
Sure, I'd say most great holes are not done justice viewing them from above.  My favorite par 5 in the world, Ridgewood's 8 West looks lousy and over-treed:



It does not show what a cool second shot you have



or this great green complex:




« Last Edit: August 08, 2011, 11:06:34 AM by Bill Brightly »