What does the treehouse think of this hole?

[Mark Saltzman]

I played this hole today and it has a bit of an unusual bunkering pattern.  At first I didn't like it because it is visually confusing off the tee.  Then I did like it because I thought it provided for a lot of options.  Now I don't think I like it because in retrospect I think there is only one option that makes sense.


From the men's tees, the hole plays 365 yards.  Here's an aerial:



I drew a line from the tee through a point just right of the left bunker to show that there isn't really a line where you can just hit it down the middle. 

It is 205 yards to carry the right bunker.  Laying up to this bunker leaves 160 yards.

It is 225 yards to reach the left bunker.  Laying up to this bunker leaves 140 yards.

The fairway is 13 yards wide right of the left bunker.

The fairway is 12 yards wide over the left bunker.



View from the Tee:






From short of the bunkers:




Looking back from the green:





In my mind, this bunkering is too complex and too penal.  What could be strategic is simply too demanding and leaves but one sensible option (a lay-up short of the left bunker).  I cannot see anyone trying to challenge any of the other bunkers as the shot is simply too demanding with a maximum of 13 yards of fairway width.

What say you all?  Anyone see this differently?

[Adrian_Stiff]

Quite a nice hole, with 4 bunkers I could not agree with its clutterred. Your best line into the green flirts with the right hand trap, perhaps being super critical the greenside trap might just eat too much across the line in, but only by a yard or so. Perhaps the trees could do with a thin out but other than that it looks pretty good to me.

[Alex Miller]

Personally I prefer diagonal hazards to little round traps. The quick fix to me is eliminate the left bunker. It is not guarding anything as the preferred line to the green would appear to be from the right side anyway.

I will say that the hole at ground level is far more appealing than you would think from the aerial.

[David_Elvins]

A hole corridor that narrow should never have a fairway bunker. 

[Bill_McBride]

This is a good hole to me because, unlike most holes these days, it demands a fade off the tee unless you can definitely carry that right side bunker.  The fact that you have to play that fade off the OOB adds some spice for sure!

[Bill Brightly]

Hard to call that flat fairway bunker on the right"penal"...  Without a high face, it looks like a simple recovery shot. And if the bunker on the left is reachable, it seems like a simple wedge to the green which will easily clear the minor upslope of the bunker.

What is the old building behind the green? I'm thinking I'd rather see that instead of a collection of spruces and pines!

[Kalen Braley]

Mark,

I've also played that hole, and I pretty much came to the same conclusion.

Pick a club to stay short of the 1st left bunker off the tee, (the 1st one on the right doesn't jut out into the fairway). Then hit the approach in from there.

P.S.  I thought the hole was pretty forgettable myself.

Be curious to see how many folks can identify this hole!

[Anthony Gray]

  Its a hole where you have to decide which bunker to challenge. So I like the design.

  Anthony

[Matthew Petersen]

I kinda like it. For a relatively short par 4 it does give you options. A little more width over the first fairway bunker on the right wouldn't hurt, but you could still try to hit a cut up in there or otherwise try to find that right side to get a better angle. The bunkers don't seem severe enough given the length of the hole that I have any issue with them.

[Kalen Braley]

As you can see from the aerial..there really is nowhere to go in terms of gaining more width.  Those 3 holes run in a small part of a corridor that really should only have 2.

P.S.  Those bunkers are in fact not very deep. Getting in one of them certainly wouldn't be an automatic wedge out.

[Garland Bayley]

It's too narrow. AM would suggest trees be grouped instead of lined up. That allows some heroic recoveries instead of 100% chip outs. It allows holes to play wider than they do with the lines of trees you see here. For the most part it is an awful hole I would guess from the dark ages of gca.

[Joel Zuckerman]

Looks like SLCC..maybe Willow Creek?

Please ID..the hole looks perfectly fine to me!

[Kalen Braley]

Looks like SLCC..maybe Willow Creek?

Please ID..the hole looks perfectly fine to me!

Ding ding,

We have a winner.  It is indeed Willow Creek, the 5th hole!  (Plays as #14 for the Nationwide event when they switch the 9s)

The hole is nothing special, even if the concept is somewhat interesting.  For that matter the course is nothing special and its a shame they don't move the Nationwide event elsewhere.  There are so many other venues in the area, public and private, that are waaaaayyy better than this course!

Its a Doak 4..on its best day!!

[Lester George]

I like it.  Well done.

Lester

[Garland Bayley]

Looks like something Kalen would take double bogey on. But, Mr. Extremely Straight Saltzman would birdie it.

A better hole would narrow the scoring gap between these two.

[Kalen Braley]

Looks like something Kalen would take double bogey on. But, Mr. Extremely Straight Saltzman would birdie it.

A better hole would narrow the scoring gap between these two.

And once again, you would be wrong. When I played it,  I hit 3w, 8 iron for a simple par.

[Matt Kardash]

Yawn. There is something about super straight holes lined by trees that my brain rejects.

[Garland Bayley]

Looks like something Kalen would take double bogey on. But, Mr. Extremely Straight Saltzman would birdie it.

A better hole would narrow the scoring gap between these two.

And once again, you would be wrong. When I played it,  I hit 3w, 8 iron for a simple par.

Mix in the pressure of a GRUDGE MATCH and it is 3 wood, chip out, 8 iron, chip, two putt DB.

[Bill_McBride]

Yawn. There is something about super straight holes lined by trees that my brain rejects.

Matt, I think it's the staggered configuration of the bunkers that makes the hole palatable to some.  Much worse would be the RTJ standard of bunkers on both sides at the same distance.  

[RSLivingston_III]

Looks like a good teens, twenties era strategic hole. Thin out the trees and reopen the corridors, along with fixing the green and its bunkering and you will have a better, more original hole.

[Kalen Braley]

Looks like a good teens, twenties era strategic hole. Thin out the trees and reopen the corridors, along with fixing the green and its bunkering and you will have a better, more original hole.

Ralph,

Thats the problem, there is nowhere to go.  Those trees are necessary to make that hole and #4 play safe.  Without them, they would both be "hard-hat specials"

If I had my druthers...I would remove all the fairway bunkers as the fairway is plenty challenge to hit with its narrowness without them. And then beef up the green complex with contouring and perhaps additional green-side bunkers to require a more exacting approach. 

[Kalen Braley]

I used Google Earth to show how close this "intersection" is.

Given the land is completely flat, with no mounding or anything else beside trees to provide protection...you have the Green at #3, the tee box on #4, and the green on #5 all within 55 yards of each other.  For a big slicer like Garland...anyone in the vicinity had better be heads up if he were playing thru this section of the course!!   

[RSLivingston_III]

I would expect the bunkering to demand some accuracy, distance and direction, from the player. It should contain the bomb and gouge crowd, and give the rest some strategic choices, especially asking the player to analyze their own skills and play within them.

I would view most of those changes (removing bunkers, etc) as a race to the bottom so as to make it 'fair' to the casual player. I think most golfers really do want challenges. Narrow fairways with deep rough and 'air bunkers' INO is the weakest option.

[Kalen Braley]

If the strategy of "mega trees with heavily bunkered greens" is good enough for a top 100 course like Pasa's 6-8 hole corridor...

http://maps.google.com/?ll=36.999002,-122.025592&spn=0.002448,0.002688&t=h&z=19


Then it oughta' be good enough for a lowly, nothing special course in Utah!!  

[RSLivingston_III]

If you have say and want to turn it into a north MI carved through the forest, course, go for it.
We have endlessly discussed all the other points here over the years and if you learned nothing from it, more power to you.
I am sure the members will love a hazard-less tree lined freeway style golf course.