How many Doak courses have you played?

[Sven Nilsen]

Bump.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

None, but I walked the Strand nine at Rosapenna last week. Doak and his crew re-did all the greens and tweaked the layout a bit. I liked what I saw. I'll post some pics when I get a chance.

[Eric Smith]

3

Heathland
Beechtree
Ballyneal


Anthony,

You asked what, if anything, did they have in common? I'll say that on all of them, the par threes were most memorable and the courses themselves were a lot of fun to play. I can't wait to take you to see his newest design sometime next season.

[Alex Lagowitz]

SO far zero, but a lot on the hit list

[Bill Brightly]

Really Bill? I've never been, but have seen many a photo and aerial. It seems to me it was not an easy course to rout. Do you think the other GCA's who could've built on that site would've done as good a job or made all the same decisions? Just curious...

Alex,

I am far from an expert on routing. Perhaps it was very challenging to use the land away from the water and connect it to the cliff holes. My impression was that most skilled GCA's would have "found" the dramatic cliff holes. I did love this green with the ocean looming in the distance.




My point is that CK is almost certainly the most difficult course he has ever built, perhaps that was the owner's direction. I describe this course as "Big and Bold", with lush bent grass fairways and greens, 30 foot wide bluegrass (?) rough strips before the high fescue. It is undeniably beautiful and the holes are great, but if you knew nothing about the course and played it, I don't think you would guess it was a Daok. Admittedly, I hit it poorly, but the course kicked my ass and reminded me more of Fazio's Trump National (without the stunning views) rather than Barny Dunes or Pac Dunes.

[Anthony Gray]

  The only reason I ever had to go to NZ was to play a Doak course.

  Anthony

[Eric Smith]

  The only reason I ever had to go to NZ was to play a Doak course.

  Anthony

There's a road named after you next to his latest design. And it's a lot closer than NZ.

[Greg Tallman]

  The only reason I ever had to go to NZ was to play a Doak course.

  Anthony

Thankfully I have better reasons but golf will be worked in as well.

[Sven Nilsen]

Thoughts on the eight Doak courses I've played (High Pointe, Pac Dunes, Ballyneal, Barnbougle Dunes, Lost Dunes, Old MacDonald, Commonground and St. Andrew's Beach)

I'd rank them as follows (based on where I 'd choose to play tomorrow with no cost or travel concerns):

1.  Ballyneal - the best walk, the best mix of holes and the most fun.  I have the benefit of repeated plays, so there are shots I've played that someone who has only seen the course once or twice might not even be aware of.  There is no better stretch of Doak holes than from 1 to 8.  Love how BN continues to reveal itself and provide you with wow moments as you play your round (fairway on 2, figuring out 3, walking up to the tee at 4, peak at 7 from 4, 8th tee and green, 11 to 12, 13th tee, 15, corner on 16, tee at 17).  A ground game course at its best.

2.  Barnbougle Dunes - a more intimate version of BN, without the extreme elevation changes.  Some great holes (par 3's and short par 4's especially), but the par 5's suffer in comparison to BN.  I also prefer a meandering routing with constant direction changes to out and back 9's.  The back at BbD does shift direction a little more than the front, but you don't get the same sense of getting lost on the course like you do at BN.  Hole to hole transitions aren't as seamless as BN

3.  Pacific Dunes - lacks one ingredient that the top two courses have, an owner that gave Doak free-reign (see the 7th and 16th at BN and the 7th and 13th at BbD).  Built as a resort course, and as such doesn't have some of the fun factor that holes like those mentioned at BN and BbD provide.  Some all world holes (2, 3, 6, 7, 11, 13) but a few sleepers as well.

4.  Old MacDonald - the toughest to judge, as the experience of playing the template holes is first rate.  However, I found my favorite holes to be away from the flat parts of the course, where contours allowed you to play away from the hole (3, 16, 18).  A good test of golf, but not without the demanding nature of some of the shots on the three courses above.    Misses out a bit on a lack of great short par-4's.

5.  St. Andrew's Beach - Wonderful green sites, but the repetitive nature of the downhill drives and uphill approaches gets a little old.  There are a few holes that are extremely challenging (long Par 3 4th, 10th, long Par 4 13th or 14th?).  Stretches of the back nine tend to blend together.

6.  High Pointe - the starting point for everything else on this list.  Very cool to see how his work has evolved from HP, and how a few of the themes have remained (skyline par 3's, green contouring, drives rewarded by finding the speed slots.)  A great mix of holes on open and wooded terrain, some flatter and some on more undulating ground.

7.  Lost Dunes - feels like it was built for a membership that wouldn't appreciate too much quirk.  Still has some great Doak touches (4th green, 11th green, drive on 15).  The same thing Doak is praised for on this site (fitting a good course onto a tough site) is probably what holds it back, as the bisecting highway disrupts the round and the holes working around the wetlands seem to be the weakest on the course.

8.  Commonground - probably the least interesting piece of property they had to work with.  Still, a good variety of holes that uses the one high point near the clubhouse to provide some elevation change at the start and finish of each nine.

My list of my favorite holes from the 8 courses noted:
   
Hole      Winner         Runner-Up

1.         Ballyneal      St. Andrew's
2.         St. Andrew's      Ballyneal/Pac Dunes (tie)
3.         Old Mac         Pac Dunes
4.         Barnbougle      Lost Dunes
5.         St. Andrew's      Old Mac      (amazing how many of these are par 3's)
6.         Pac Dunes      Barnbougle
7.         Ballyneal      Barnbougle  (really strong group top to bottom)
8.         Ballyneal      St. Andrew's
9.         Barnbougle      Old Mac         (perhaps the weakest set)
10.         Ballyneal      Barnbougle
11.         Pac Dunes      High Pointe
12.         Barnbougle      Ballyneal     
13.         Pac Dunes      Barnbougle
14.         Pac Dunes      Ballyneal
15.         Barnbougle      Ballyneal
16.         Ballyneal      Old Mac
17.         Ballyneal      Barnbougle  (with apologies to PD and OM - both holes I really like)
18.         St. Andrew's      Old Mac

[Michael Whitaker]

Sven - I think your analysis of the ones I've played is spot on. Do you think there is any common design theme or tendency among the Doak courses you have played... especially concerning the routing? I have my own thoughts about that, but I'd like to hear what you think before I share. 

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven - I think your analysis of the ones I've played is spot on. Do you think there is any common design theme or tendency among the Doak courses you have played... especially concerning the routing? I have my own thoughts about that, but I'd like to hear what you think before I share. 

Michael:

Your question raised a lot of thoughts, and it was hard to craft an answer that addressed them all.  I'll go with the short and sweet version.  I think Tom's work has one central binding theme, that playing golf should be fun. 

With respect to routing, there's no one rule or theme that stands out.  In general, the courses I've seen have a meandering feel to them, but then you encounter Barnbougle Dunes which has an out and back layout.   Some courses give you peaks of the action to come, while others seem to be a series of reveals from the tee. 

Many of the routings were the result of the constraints presented by the available land.  At Barnie, the narrow strip along the dunes necessitated an out and back layout.  There's a great contrast to this style in the work done at Lost Farm on a piece of property with an entirely different shape.  Lost Dunes seemed to be an exercise in connecting the useful pieces of the property. 

Without the constraints in shape, or where the client is willing and/or able to buy the adjacent land to add to the available space, you see the meandering style in play.  Sometimes with a nine-hole return, sometimes not.

None of this addresses another important factor, which is how the prevailing wind affects routing decisions.     

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

Sven

 

[Jud_T]

Sven,

At the risk of breaking Lent on Doak Fridays, Lost Dunes 7th? Was High Pointe that good or you just aren't sold on LD?

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven,

At the risk of breaking Lent on Doak Fridays, Lost Dunes 7th? Was High Pointe that good or you just aren't sold on LD?

Jud:

I played HP in 2001 during a wedding weekend in Traverse City and had no idea who had designed it.  I opted to play it over the resort courses in the area, and walked away feeling like I had found a hidden gem.  The entire experience helped shape my interest in GCA.  I'd go back in a heartbeat.

[Tim Bert]

Sven,

At the risk of breaking Lent on Doak Fridays, Lost Dunes 7th? Was High Pointe that good or you just aren't sold on LD?

Jud:

I played HP in 2001 during a wedding weekend in Traverse City and had no idea who had designed it.  I opted to play it over the resort courses in the area, and walked away feeling like I had found a hidden gem.  The entire experience helped shape my interest in GCA.  I'd go back in a heartbeat.

I think if you went back, you'd be awfully disappointed. 

Curious on your sleeper comment re: Pacific Dunes.  Which holes are really sleepers in your mind?  I assume you meant sleeper in the sense of not impressive as opposed to a sleeper meaning something really good that people just don't fully appreciate.

[Sven Nilsen]

I'd go back to circa 2001 HP.  I understand the 2011 version may not be as well-conditioned as Lost Dunes.

Holes at Pac Dunes that I didn't love (but still liked):

8 (although I really, really like the green)
9 (to the lower green, I prefer this hole as done at OM)
15
18

Holes at Pac Dunes that some people don't fully appreciate:

1
5
12

[Kalen Braley]

I'd go back to circa 2001 HP.  I understand the 2011 version may not be as well-conditioned as Lost Dunes.

Holes at Pac Dunes that I didn't love (but still liked):

8 (although I really, really like the green)
9 (to the lower green, I prefer this hole as done at OM)
15
18

Holes at Pac Dunes that some people don't fully appreciate:

1
5
12

Sven,

Interesting...I have it like this:

My Bottom 3 holes at PD:  (once again as you say, everything is good there, but if forced to pick the 3 I was the least excited about)

8, 10, 12


The holes that people don't fully appreciate:

9, 15, 18


I guess at the end of the day, its just subjective quibbling over the small things.

[Michael Whitaker]

Sven - It seems to me that there are a lot of shots on Doak's courses where the target is above your head. Considerably more than I remember experiencing at other courses. So many that it started to stand out to me after playing three or four of his courses. I even noticed when touring the new property at Dismal River that there are a lot of uphill shots planned there... it even starts out uphill on the first hole (at least the one we were shown).

To clarify, what I am referring to are shots where the target is higher than your head. Sometimes the uphill nature of the shot is slight, but sometimes much more so. Often there are tee shots that play from one high spot to another... followed by an approach shot to a third high point, with valleys between each shot. If your tee shot or second shot does not make or stay on the intended level and winds up in one of the valleys you are left with a difficult uphill shot to a blind or semi-blind target. This why I think Doak's courses often play hard for golfers of average talent, like me. They are fun if you don't have a card & pencil in your hand... but, if you are the type of golfer who worries about your personal score it can be a very long and frustrating day.

I was hit over the head with this idea at St Andrews Beach. It seemed I was playing uphill all day. Could it be Tom focuses on playing up-to and off-of the high points on a piece of property? If so, then it is a matter of connecting the dots in an interesting way to route the holes. I'm probably way off base, but that is the way these courses "feel" to me. I don't remember ever having as many uphill shots on one course as I have had on courses like St Andrews Beach and Cape Kidnappers. And, both were very tough walks.

[Sven Nilsen]

Michael:

Forgive me while I work this through while typing: 

Ballyneal - don't think this generalization applies.  There are a few holes with this feature (approach on 4, 11, approach on 14, approach on 16), but there are as many or more holes with significant downhill features (2, drive on 4, 7, 17).  At Ballyneal the playing corridors feel like you're walking through the dunes, following the natural sweeping contours whether they're downhill or uphill (this is the impression I was left with, I've heard others disagree).

Barnbougle - similar to BN with a good mix of uphill shots (approach on 4, approach on 6, approach on 8 (from the right side), approach on 10) and downhill shots (5, 13, 16).  There are a few instances of high point to high point play, particularly the drive on 12.  If anything, at Barnie the theme seemed to be a level or downhill drive with a few holes having a green slightly perched above the fairway.

Pac Dunes - I can't think of a single hole at PD that plays from high-point to high-point off the tee.  Perhaps 14, but as a par 3 I don't know if it meets your criteria.  The approach on 6 could be viewed as significantly uphill if playing from the left. 

Old Mac - again, there are a couple of uphill shots (7 and 14 of note), but I don't think the theory applies here at all.

St. Andrew's Beach - Yes, but its not as prevalent as the instances make it feel.  And it is a tough walk.  I have not seen Cape Kidnappers, so I can't speak to the feel of the place.  I'll take your word that you thought these two courses were comparable.

As for the other three courses I've played, I can think of a few holes that have this feature, but wouldn't say its widespread.

I think using the elevation on the property is important to Tom, but I don't necessarily feel it always creates an imbalance of uphill shots to downhill shots.  I'm sure there are parts of the properties that immediately stood out as green settings or tee boxes, and the identification of those sites probably plays a big part in the routing plan.  What's extremely fascinating to me are the choices made in the routing process, the holes not built, the paths not taken.  Some places lend themselves a little better to this type of day-dreaming (Ballyneal and Pac Dunes more than a place like Barnbougle, where the angles of play are much more limited).  I think the amateur architect in all of us has just enough appreciation of the process to be left with a sense of wonderment in how it was all put together. 

[Michael Whitaker]

Sven - You and I are definitely not on the same wave length concerning what constitutes an uphill shot. To me #1 at Ballyneal plays uphill. So does #1 at Barnbougle Dunes. Again, my definition of uphill is does the hole require a shot that finishes above your head. I think both of these holes qualify...

Ballyneal #1


Barnbougle Dunes #1



Of all the new Doak courses I have played I found Ballyneal to be the most forgiving and a sheer joy to walk.

[Tom_Doak]

Tim Weiman is the only one who has played more than half my courses -- 18 out of 30.  Most have played under 1/4.

Michael W:  Cape Kidnappers is a severe walk?  Other than going down in the valley on #7, the entire course is built on the same tilted plane from #2 green (high point) to #16 fairway (low point).  I've walked 36 holes a day there more than once and it was surprisingly easy ... a lot easier than when we hit it around before the bridges were in place and we had to climb through the ravines!

The first hole at Ballyneal is uphill significantly from tee to green, I can't imagine anyone who would say otherwise.  The first at Barnbougle is slightly uphill on the approach, depending on how far you hit your second shot.

[Scott Warren]

I didn't expect to see Barnbougle Dunes at the top of the list (or at least above Pacific Dunes) for so many folks.

Tom - I notice Tim has only walked a few of them, in which case it's neck-and-neck between he and David Kelly for top spot. Can you list all 30?

[Michael Whitaker]

Tim Weiman is the only one who has played more than half my courses -- 18 out of 30.  Most have played under 1/4.

Michael W:  Cape Kidnappers is a severe walk?  Other than going down in the valley on #7, the entire course is built on the same tilted plane from #2 green (high point) to #16 fairway (low point).  I've walked 36 holes a day there more than once and it was surprisingly easy ... a lot easier than when we hit it around before the bridges were in place and we had to climb through the ravines!

The first hole at Ballyneal is uphill significantly from tee to green, I can't imagine anyone who would say otherwise.  The first at Barnbougle is slightly uphill on the approach, depending on how far you hit your second shot.

Well, Tom, all I can say is Cape Kidnappers was one of the two or three toughest walks for me on my trip to Australia, New Zealand and Bandon Dunes during four weeks in Feb/March. I played 25 rounds on my trip... walked all but one, and carried my bag on 2/3's of those (including the round at Cape Kidnappers). Now, I'm not as young as you (I turned 60 this year) but, I think I did OK.

A lot of the difficult parts for me at Cape Kidnappers were the walks from the tee to reach the fairway or the parts between holes. Take the first three holes for instance...

From the tee the first hole requires a walk down into a valley before you reach the landing zone on top of the hill.


From down in the first valley...


...you walk up to the landing zone hill...


...then, head down into a second valley preceding the green...


...from the second valley you walk up to the green...


...which gives you this view back up the fairway, showing the terrain just traversed.


I have to admit I was a tad winded standing on the green. Maybe I should have stuck to the cart paths, but I took the most direct route from tee to green where I could.

On #2 I walked down the hill from the tee into the valley...


...then up, over and down the rise to the fairway which heads up the grade...


...to the green (the highest point on the course?)...


...then, over to the number three tee...


...where you must cover this terrain after your tee shot.


This was the only round during my trip that I played by myself, so I took my time and "smelled the roses," as they say. Still, when I was finished I was POOPED and ready for an adult beverage. There is no way I could have done a 36 hole day on foot.

[Tom_Doak]

Scott:

I'll try, though it's late here in Scotland.  Here goes:

1  High Pointe  [NLE]
2  Legends (Heathland)
3  Black Forest
4  Charlotte Golf Links
5  Stonewall (Old)
6  Quail Crossing
7  Beechtree  [NLE]
8  Apache Stronghold
9  Lost Dunes
10  Riverfront

11  Village Club of Sands Point
12  Atlantic City CC
13  Pacific Dunes
14  The Sheep Ranch  (shhh)
15  The Rawls Course
16  Stonewall (North)
17  Cape Kidnappers
18  Barnbougle Dunes
19  St. Andrews Beach
20  Tumble Creek

21  Stone Eagle
22  Ballyneal
23  Sebonack
24  The Renaissance Club
25  Rock Creek
26  Aetna Springs
27  Common Ground
28  Bay of Dreams
29  Old Macdonald  
30  Streamsong (Blue)

[Sven Nilsen]

Michael:

Are we talking about uphill shots or uphill shots where the miss is punished with a blind or semi-blind recovery or both?  In my mind, there's a difference, especially if we are looking for themes in the routings.  Unless the course is on completely flat terrain, it would be hard to avoid the first kind described.  

Do you notice the uphill nature of the shots more at St. Andrew's Beach because the punishment for a miss is generally severe?

This whole conversation raises an interesting point regarding perception.  Andrew Lewis and I had a running debate about the 10th and 15th holes at Kingsley.  I was convinced that the 15th was significantly more up hill than the 10th.  Both holes have a slightly raised tee box with a fairway that rises from its start to the green.  The 10th has a very steady increase in grade, and if you're hit a good drive you're probably more concerned with hitting an approach that won't run off the back of the green than you are with making sure you have enough club to negotiate the uphill nature of the hole.  The 15th fairway has a slight crest at around 200 yards from the green that serves as a good measure of whether or not you've hit a good drive.  From the crest to the green, the incline is less pronounced until you reach the very front of the putting surface, where the turf climbs up a sharp three foot hill.  For whatever reason, the 15th just feels more uphill than the 10th, although from start of the fairway through the green it isn't.  When I play the 10th, the uphill nature doesn't really factor into my thought process, but when I play the 15th, it does.

As for walkability, courses with a gradual uphills and downhills are a lot easier on the legs than those with a series of sharp inclines and declines.  I think Ballyneal falls in the former group and St. Andrew's Beach in the latter.  From your pictures, it appears that Cape Kidnappers is more like SAB than BN.

[JC Jones]

The good news is that after October 15 I will have played courses 1-4.  The bad news is I only have played 1 after that stretch (Pac Dunes).