Why try and get rid of the Poa?

[Keith OHalloran]

I have read a lot lately about courses trying to rid the greens of Poa. On Long Island, there have been some courses that recently did some real damage to greens trying to accomplish this. One greenkeeper lost his job when the damage to the greens went too far. It seems that Poa can be maintained as a decent putting surface, and it also seems that it is almost inevitable to have some Poa (at least here on Long Island) so my question is, why try and get rid of it, if it may damage the course in the process, and come back anyway?

[Steve Kline]

I've wondered this to when a course with arguably the best greens in the world - Oakmont - are poa. Aren't PV's greens poa too? It seems that if just go with it and cultivate it correctly you will have some great putting surfaces.

[Kalen Braley]

I've wondered this to when a course with arguably the best greens in the world - Oakmont - are poa. Aren't PV's greens poa too? It seems that if just go with it and cultivate it correctly you will have some great putting surfaces.

Steve,

Its my understanding that Oakmont has developed a strain that comes from the Twilight Zone

A)  Will only grow there, at that golf course...literally
B)  They've tried to use it elsewhere and fails miserably.

So it would seem to be a complete and utter mystery and entirely unreproducible....so far!!

[William_G]

I've wondered this to when a course with arguably the best greens in the world - Oakmont - are poa. Aren't PV's greens poa too? It seems that if just go with it and cultivate it correctly you will have some great putting surfaces.

correct

[Will MacEwen]

Here on the west coast, our greens are poa.  A friend of mine from Alberta was out in the late spring and marvelled at our greens.  At his home course, they are ripping up 18 greens in the fall to get rid of the poa. 

[Steve Kline]

I've wondered this to when a course with arguably the best greens in the world - Oakmont - are poa. Aren't PV's greens poa too? It seems that if just go with it and cultivate it correctly you will have some great putting surfaces.

Steve,

Its my understanding that Oakmont has developed a strain that comes from the Twilight Zone

A)  Will only grow there, at that golf course...literally
B)  They've tried to use it elsewhere and fails miserably.

So it would seem to be a complete and utter mystery and entirely unreproducible....so far!!

I'm not suggesting you take Oakmont's poa and transplant it. I'm suggesting cultivating the particular strains growing on your own greens.

[Joe Bausch]

Fellow GCAer Kyle Harris has a blog with this article entitled "Know Your Turf:  Annual Bluegrass":

http://kylewharris.com/2011/03/08/know-your-turf-annual-bluegrass/

[Brent Hutto]

"poa" is a pretty general term innit? Just because a bunch of meadow grass pops up at random on your greens, it doesn't necessarily follow that it would form a wonderful putting surface. A bit of random chance involved if I understand the nature of the stuff aright.

[Randy Thompson]

I will let this go for a while and then comment but there are plenty of reasons, especially if you compare it to a A4/A1 mixture but it will always depend on your particular micro enviroment.

[Joe Bausch]

"poa" is a pretty general term innit? Just because a bunch of meadow grass pops up at random on your greens, it doesn't necessarily follow that it would form a wonderful putting surface. A bit of random chance involved if I understand the nature of the stuff aright.

Check out Kyle's blog Brent.

[Rory Connaughton]

Randy is spot on with respect to micro climate.  We are in the same state as Oakmont but our growing environment could not be more different.  We rarely have cool nights and the heat coupled with the high humidity around the clock and the fact that we are in the way of virtually every thunderstorm that moves in from the west makes it virtually impossible to keep the poa alive.  The surfaces are tremendous in spring and fall but under the conditions we experience in the summer it just doesn't work.

What is really amazing to me about micro climate is that Stonewall and French Creek are about 35 miles due east and a little north and they seem to get less than half the rain we do.  Its remarkable how different that environment is even though we are in the same region.

[Carl Nichols]

I believe that Columbia CC, which is just inside the Beltway in Chevy Chase, MD, has some kind of poa greens.  They don't look very fast, but they usually are, and I've not experienced the bumpiness that is sometimes associated with poa.  They're actually terrific greens.

[SL_Solow]

Unfortunately, everybody seems to have forgotten about last summer when hundreds of courses suffered significant turf loss on their greens.  There is scientific basis for the problem.  Poa can outcompete most bents when the climate is cool and wet a la Northern California and the rest of the northern west coast.  But because it is shallow rooted, it cannot withstand extended periods of hot weather, particularly when the nights remain warm.  High humidity and or large amounts of rain does not help because the high temperatures in the root zone (often no more than 2 inches below the surface) can cook the roots in the heated liquid.

The newer bents such as A! and A4 have been developed to have deep roots.  although I am not a professional, I have some interest in this area.  I was shown A1 A4 roots at a Chicago area club that extended some 24 inches below the surface in late spring.  with shriveling in the summer, they still were well over a foot below the surface in July.  Thus they take up water in an area which is much cooler and use that liquid to help the plant survive.

The grass isn't perfect but it has a much better survival rate.  That is why you plant it and replace poa.  The advantages regarding seed heads and the like are not as significant.  A final point; I understand the test data shows that A1 A4 resists winter kill better than poa showing little or no effects up to 37 below farenheit.

[David Kelly]

No poa and all poa greens are fine.  It is in the transition when the poa starts creepiing in that is the problem.

Prairie Dunes has been gassing their greens and replanting about every 20 years to clear out the poa.  The last time it was done was a few years ago (although I didn't think it was needed) and the greens have been poa free since.

[Joel_Stewart]

Clubs in California have had different reactions and different success.

At San Francisco, they changed their greens from poa to bent probably 8 years ago due to the nematode.   The new rebuilt greens are still push up.  At Olympic they did the same yet decided to build them USGA spec on the advice of inexperienced architect. (Both SFGC and Olympic are built on sand dunes and don't have a drainage problem).

Cal Club, LACC, MPCC and others have changed their greens over the last few years. 

One of the other reasons Olympic changed was the need for higher speeds during the US Open next year.  I suspect they could speed them up to just about anything they want since they are still rock hard.  Olympic sodded their greens instead of seeding.

[Bradley Anderson]

Last year I managed a course with Poa greens - this year I am managing Providence/Pennlinks bentgrass greens.

Last year we hand watered all day every day from mid-July to September - this year no hand watering except in the rare instances where we have a localized dry spot.

Last year in August my roots were 1/2" - this year they are 8 inches.

Last year my greens were on life support from mid-July to September - this year I have let greens wilt in the heat, and starve during the humidity when fungus pressure is high.

Last year I waited three weeks for the aeration holes to heal in May and October (Poa has very slow recuperative growth because it is a bunch type grass) this year my aeration holes have closed in 7 days (bentgrass grows laterally and heals faster)

Last year I sprayed every 7 days, oftens times with two fungicides in the tank + minor nutrients + growth regulators - this year every two weeks, even during the record breaking heat and humidity, and the mixtures are pretty basic and safe.

Last year I sodded dead patches of Poa on greens from ice damage- this year I rolled and mowed and we were good to go.

Last year I mowed at .115 to get the speed I wanted – this year I am at .130.

[SL_Solow]

Brad;  Older bent or new cultivars?

[Bradley Anderson]

Brad;  Older bent or new cultivars?

Providence/Pennlinks circa mid 1990's.

[Bradley Anderson]

Serious question:  what good is root structure if there's no grass above the surface to actually putt on?  If this stuff didn't explode on impact and make fixing a pitch mark impossible, it'd be a miracle grass. But unfortunately, balls have to land on this stuff. And that's it's achilles heel, IMO.

Shivas,

I can't say that I have had that expereince on any of the newer bents, but then I haven't played that many high-round courses that have made the conversion to any of the A's. However even if you had a Penncross bentgrasss green you can provide putting conditions to match the best Poa. Conway Farms is proof of that.

[Pete_Pittock]

Poa should be Oregon's state weed, but another plant has the unofficial title. Most of the older courses are 100% poa. Newer courses in the Willamette Valley have started as bent grass and are slowly being taken over by the poa. Our course is converting to poa over a three year span by maintenance practices. We are at the end of the cycle and the geens are getting better and better. The worst scenario is when the bent-poa is 50-50. If you get agressive on either the other tends to take umbrage and you get terrible greens. 

[Bradley Anderson]

The oldest bents that were developed by the USGA in the 1920's were chosen for attributes that can not stand up to modern green speed expectations. This is why so many classic courses are predominately Poa - the bents that were propogated in their formative years can not tolerate the close mowing heights that Poa can adapt to. The 1920's bents would give you 5 leaf blades per plant at green speed of 8-9. But at a green speed of 10-11 they will only give you 2-3 leaf blades per plant and Poa always wins that battle.

So the classic courses are betwixt and between Poa and bent. This is why the classic courses are regrassing to the newer bents. because the Poa isn't reliable during icy winters and hot humid summers.

The whole issue is mostly about sustainable and managable green speeds.

[Rory Connaughton]

I am curious to know what the experience with Alpha is. I Have read and been told that its density helps to withstand pitch marks and pow better than other strains. My understanding is that the news greens at Weyhill were seeded with an alpha a1 a4 blend.  We have just started a gassed and reseed and I am wondering about including alpha in the mix.

[GBoring]

Poa Greens can be tremendous putting surfaces with the ideal environment.  Our greens are 95% poa annua.  Given the fact the greens are 85 years old we have a lot of perennial type of poa on our greens.  We have an ideal climate for Poa.  1600 feet of elevation in Northeast PA.  We have removed thousands of trees throughout the property to give them every opportunity to thrive.  We can provide our membership with above average speeds on a daily basis, but we know when we have to back off.  If we were maintaining grass in Philadelphia would I want that much Poa.  Not a chance.  But with our ciimate it thrives and our members love putting them on a daily basis.  I am actually more concerned about the damage we sustain over the winter than what we encouter in the summer months.  I feel that at least in the summer I have a chance of preventing it.  We have tried everything over the winter and it is a roll of the dice every year when the snow melts. 

[Don_Mahaffey]

I admit I haven't played Conway in a while, but if those greens aren't pitchmarked do death the way Westmoreland's and Medinah's were the last time I played there, I'll just shut up on this subject.

My big concern is people falling in love with this stuff on a practice putting green, where it's perfect because nobody is landing shots on it, without factoring in the way these grasses explode on impact.  

Dave,
With all due respect what you, and most golfers can't shut up about, or deduce, is that it isn’t all about the grass. Go play John Anderson bent grass in Oregon and tell me about how it explodes on impact. Go play Dan Lucas bent in Michigan and tell me about how much it explodes on impact. Its not the grass.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Poa Greens can be tremendous putting surfaces with the ideal environment.  Our greens are 95% poa annua.  Given the fact the greens are 85 years old we have a lot of perennial type of poa on our greens.  We have an ideal climate for Poa.  1600 feet of elevation in Northeast PA.  We have removed thousands of trees throughout the property to give them every opportunity to thrive.  We can provide our membership with above average speeds on a daily basis, but we know when we have to back off.  If we were maintaining grass in Philadelphia would I want that much Poa.  Not a chance.  But with our ciimate it thrives and our members love putting them on a daily basis.  I am actually more concerned about the damage we sustain over the winter than what we encouter in the summer months.  I feel that at least in the summer I have a chance of preventing it.  We have tried everything over the winter and it is a roll of the dice every year when the snow melts. 

Greg,
  Thanks for the email earlier this week with the link to the renovation progress that you are making.  Marzolf is stud and has done some really fine bunker work on some old, classic golf courses, as of late.
  I just wanted to say that reading your above post was quite refreshing in the fact that you didn’t  refer to everything about the golf course as “me,” “my” or “mine.” Ultimately, the golf course superintendent, (in most cases) doesn’t own the course. We are not typically the ones mowing, or rolling, or spraying, etc.  We’re directing it and how we think it’s best done. In so many discussions and/or articles, I’ve never understood why it’s always, “my greens, my roots or I sprayed or I’m cutting at…” Ultimately, I think that it takes away credit from the staff and Assistants that are really doing the physical work. I would be interested if any members of this site, who are members at a course, get upset if they hear their Superintendent talk like such. (Maybe most do not even notice) It’s much more the member’s golf course that it is the Superintendents.