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Melvyn Morrow

Are Designers on GCA.com subject to a Code of Silence?
« on: August 03, 2011, 12:29:16 PM »

If not then why have we not had a detailed and fundamental debate about the design and build of Askernish Golf Course? No, not its remoteness but its GCA.

Let’s look to the course through the eyes of an architect or designer, not Joe Public or an excuse for a golfer who rates courses for the entertainment of Editors of Golfing Magazines – well they sell more magazines so make more money because many love to moan about the listings how did this get ahead of this or that’s not worthy of that position – totally pointless and waste of time, yet the important GCA of a course is ignored.

I am puzzled from the silence that comes from the professional classes who design and build our modern courses. I would have thought that Askernish would be a brilliant course to study, seeking knowledge on its…

Drainage or the lack of modern systems
Soil
Grasses
Greens
Traffic
and many more points closer to the hearts of designers and not forgetting Green Keepers.

Yet we have next to total silence on the structure of the land, the course, its sustainability, and other items that are so important regards maintenance – nevertheless any discussion always seems the be about its remoteness and is judged by a financial formula that do not apply in many places in Scotland let alone South Uist.

Ralph and his Team supported and assisted by Gordon Irvine, Martin Ebert (Architect), Chris Haspell (Green keeper) and Adam Lawrence (Editor, Golf Course Architecture), just to name a few have created the impossible, a golf course for £50,000 that so far has nearly everyone who has played it shouting about its quality.

So why no article or detailed report on the course, its soil or its closeness to the heart of traditional game?  Is it possible that there is a conspiracy afoot, do the Associations want to kill the idea that courses to this quality can be built for £50,000 and maintained upon a shoestring budget? What is going on, this is the most important course in the history of the modern game and the architects and their Associations are keeping quiet.

Gentlemen, why the silence – you cannot afford to be silent or perhaps some of you have built just too many over expensive cockups that some have had to be modified before a year is up. Be complacent and watch your reputation slowly diminish.

This whether you like it or not is History in The Making, why have you not gone and seen for yourself  and asked how they managed it, how they achieved what nearly every designers dreams of, producing a well know highly enjoyable golf course that is affordable to all.

I do not even hear any whispers, just silence with the exception of perhaps from the ever faithful John Garrity  http://jgarrity2.wordpress.com/2011/01/23/askernish-who-needs-winter-rules/

Gentlemen, is there a conspiracy of silence? If not why are you not talking about it with your fellow Members.

Melvyn

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are Designers on GCA.com subject to a Code of Silence?
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2011, 01:14:15 PM »
I suspect that not many have actually been there. Those who have, like Tom Doak, did comment. If you have any additional information why not post it right here?

Personally, I would be interested in a breakdown of the £50000 figure. My current impression is that a lot of people have worked for free. Not sure what the lesson from that would be for building golf courses in a non-remote place without an OTM connection.

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Are Designers on GCA.com subject to a Code of Silence?
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2011, 01:30:14 PM »

Ulrich

Its a simple question, why the silence over Askernish -  and as for Tom D he has only given us a few lines.

I am not posting anything, the whole point of my question is what has happened at Askernish is rather important for GCA, but not many have been there perhaps not interested or is there another reason we do not know.

Apathy is not a subject to promote when you are seeking work in a recession, but I have just asked a question.

Melvyn

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are Designers on GCA.com subject to a Code of Silence?
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2011, 01:40:38 PM »
Melvyn

Uh, maybe it's because Tom is not being paid by you to provide all this exhaustive detail.  Time is money, buddy.

I think your attitude is backwards...and I certainly do not think there is a conspiracy afoot!!!

Most of us are thankful these guys share with us what they do, they certainly are not obligated to.

Your post reeks of accusations.  Moreover, you imply that if Tom et al are not willing to provide the "detail" you speak of, then something is rotten in Scotland.

You attract more honey with bees....

What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are Designers on GCA.com subject to a Code of Silence?
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2011, 01:41:05 PM »
Melvyn

You are better placed than the vast majority on here to ask questions and discuss the design of the course. Can I suggest you raise a question about some aspect of the design such as its routing and the use of the dune system, or how much soil/sand was shifted to make features, how much of it was natural etc. That kind of opening gambit is going to get a much better response than your first post on this thread.

That post just seems to be spoiling for a fight, which is counter productive, unless of course............ ;)

Niall

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are Designers on GCA.com subject to a Code of Silence?
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2011, 01:41:24 PM »
Melvyn,

Your question has a lot of assumptions behind it.  For just one example, you state that "what has happened at Askernish is rather important for GCA."   Is what happened at Askernish rather important for golf?   It may be, I don't know, but you stating it doesn't necessarily make it so.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are Designers on GCA.com subject to a Code of Silence?
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2011, 01:43:20 PM »
Here is one thing that has always caught my attention...

One of the biggest costs of golf course construction is irrigation.  Right?

But Askernish cost next to nothing to build.  Right?

I assume it has no fairway irrigation...or very little.

How can that be possible?  Is the land and climate simply that close to ideal for golf?
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are Designers on GCA.com subject to a Code of Silence?
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2011, 01:49:31 PM »
Now Mac, your heading very dangerously close to a discussion on the design elements of Askernish.

Links turf generally survives on a starvation diet which is why it is the way it is. While a lot of mainland links courses have irrigation, I think you will find that it will get used sparingly if it all in some places.

Niall

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are Designers on GCA.com subject to a Code of Silence?
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2011, 01:51:47 PM »
I think there are courses in the US that survived just fine for over a century without fairway irrigation.   Isn't the built in fairway irrigation a relatively new feature at Maidstone?   Does Newport even have a built in fairway irrigation?
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are Designers on GCA.com subject to a Code of Silence?
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2011, 02:13:14 PM »
Melvyn, you are stating that what has happened at Askernish is important for GCA. Could you elaborate

a) what exactly has happened at Askernish?
b) why that would be relevant for GCA in general?

With that background I think we might be able to evince one or the other professional opinion :)

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Are Designers on GCA.com subject to a Code of Silence?
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2011, 02:30:07 PM »
Ulrich

I will leave that for you to work out, I am certain you will come up with something.

Melvyn

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are Designers on GCA.com subject to a Code of Silence?
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2011, 02:33:12 PM »
Rabbits can't talk.

Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are Designers on GCA.com subject to a Code of Silence?
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2011, 02:37:40 PM »
Rabbits can't talk.

Bogey

I don't know, Mike, the rabbits at Rustic Canyon are advancing pretty rapidly.  I am pretty sure I saw them flashing some sort of hand signs across the 13th fairway last week, from one grouping to another. At this rate, I expect them to start speaking within a couple of months.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Are Designers on GCA.com subject to a Code of Silence?
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2011, 02:54:36 PM »


Niall

Not after a fight at all – no thanks.

I just asked a question why no real interest and as for specifics I did list five or six items .  A course for that price and no major comments from the design world - tell me is that not strange.

Tom D enjoyed himself, others have too, Members here have submitted some interesting reports on their round, I am just seeking a designers review, his feelings,, could he learn anything form the site  course etc,etc. But for a site like GCA.com we have had in real terms not professional reporting on the actual course and what it may offer other designers.

Why so much silence on Askernish and now attack upon me for asking a question that seems strange that it has not been previously answered.

Melvyn


Ian Andrew

Re: Are Designers on GCA.com subject to a Code of Silence?
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2011, 03:14:04 PM »
Melvyn,

Your question was far better than the thread.
The issue is only two architects I know have stood foot on the course.
One no longer posts.

Is there a code of silence - no.
Are we held much more accountable for what we say - yes.

Ever notice how few architects post regularly?

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are Designers on GCA.com subject to a Code of Silence?
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2011, 03:17:57 PM »
Melvyn,
I don't think anyone has a code of silence.
But what is Askernish?
Thanks.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Are Designers on GCA.com subject to a Code of Silence?
« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2011, 03:31:07 PM »

Mike

Its the future of Golf as we know it or thought we did

Melvyn

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are Designers on GCA.com subject to a Code of Silence?
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2011, 03:45:09 PM »
Melvyn, you are not doing Askernish and its people any favors if you blatantly refuse to give out any information and at the same time criticise the world at large for not discussing it.

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Are Designers on GCA.com subject to a Code of Silence?
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2011, 04:01:43 PM »


Ulrich

I have asked a question, its not down to me to answer it too, that’s not the idea. What have I got to post to back up my question, a question is a question is a question give me some answers and I might be able to comment.

Melvyn

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are Designers on GCA.com subject to a Code of Silence?
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2011, 04:02:45 PM »

Mike

Its the future of Golf as we know it or thought we did

Melvyn

hmmmmm...concrete or asphalt paths?  Club Car or EZ Go?
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Are Designers on GCA.com subject to a Code of Silence?
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2011, 04:05:41 PM »


Mike

hmmmmm...concrete or asphalt paths?  Club Car or EZ Go?

If only you where referring to golf.

elvyn

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are Designers on GCA.com subject to a Code of Silence?
« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2011, 04:17:47 PM »
Melvyn,

I really don't know what to make of you.  You have an extensive, exceptional even knowledge of early UK architects and architecture.  You are generous to a fault in providing information to those with an interest.  You are passionate about some of the most important issues in golf today.

But, you indulge in pots like those on here, clearly created with the sole intention of picking a fight.  As Ulrich says, your refusal to answer questions here is madness and only serves to reinforce the effect this thread appears designed for, to prevent reasoned discussion of Askernish.  If you are genuine, I wish you could understand how much damage posts like yours on this thread do to your cause.  If, as I suspect from time to time, you are a troll, I wish you would troll elsewhere.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are Designers on GCA.com subject to a Code of Silence?
« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2011, 04:45:25 PM »
Melvyn, your question was why don't more course architects comment on Askernish. You said that something very important happened there and asked why it is not discussed more. Well, but you never stated WHAT EXACTLY it is that happened there and that GCA people should talk about.

You throw out a number of terms such as building costs, soil, traffic, drainage, sustainability etc. - but I fail to see what you are getting at. I'm sure there is a worthwile concept in your mind that bears discussion, but you need to spell it out clearly for the slower learners such as myself and those like Mark, who don't have their crystal ball handy :)

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are Designers on GCA.com subject to a Code of Silence?
« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2011, 05:07:13 PM »
Melyvn,

No real code of silence, although we hate generally to comment on what we don't know about.  And, I never have visited so I declined to comment.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are Designers on GCA.com subject to a Code of Silence?
« Reply #24 on: August 03, 2011, 05:14:03 PM »
I may be wrong...

..but it was my impression the reason why more people don't go is based primarily on its remote location and there only being 1 course within miles. 

So I'm guessing there is no big conspiracy theory here Melyvn.