[Brian Finn]

I don't mind a bit.  In fact, I wish more people would do this.  It provides some real information to the thread, instead of just showing off where someone has been; and it also provides some real information about the reporter, and whether I should trust his or her ratings in the future. 

Unfortunately, you seem to have jinxed it, as no one has posted any 0-10 ratings since your post.  So, I will start, with a report from my trip last week [the last one for Volume 2 of The Confidential Guide].  Note that I did not play all of these courses, as there was a LOT of rain in the area last week:

Tom (or anyone else), care to explain the "Doak Scale" to a newbie?

http://www.linksmagazine.com/best_of_golf/the-doak-scale

[JStewart]

I don't mind a bit.  In fact, I wish more people would do this.  It provides some real information to the thread, instead of just showing off where someone has been; and it also provides some real information about the reporter, and whether I should trust his or her ratings in the future.  

Unfortunately, you seem to have jinxed it, as no one has posted any 0-10 ratings since your post.  So, I will start, with a report from my trip last week [the last one for Volume 2 of The Confidential Guide].  Note that I did not play all of these courses, as there was a LOT of rain in the area last week:

Tom (or anyone else), care to explain the "Doak Scale" to a newbie?

http://www.linksmagazine.com/best_of_golf/the-doak-scale

Thank you.

On that note ..

Club at Mediterra (North) 6
Bonita Bay (Cypress) 6
Twin Eagles (Talon) 6
Old Corkscrew GC 6
Naples Grande GC 5
Calusa Pines GC 8
TPC Stonebrae 6
Half Moon Bay (Ocean) 4
Oakland Hills CC (South) 9
Oakland Hills CC (North) 6

[JStewart]

JStewart...

Any pleasant surprises in that mix?

Calusa Pines was fantastic (No. 3 in Florida per Golf Digest). Immaculate conditioning, a nice variety of holes (challenging but playable), and some elevation change which is rare for this part of the state.

[Mac Plumart]

Rather than put in the Doak Score, I'll just give my quick opinion on the courses I previously listed.


Dismal River Red---a true masterpiece.  Perhaps the best example of "equifinality" that I have seen.


Dismal River White---a uniquely fun golf course.  Perhaps not everyone's cup of tea, but if it is your style...you love it.


Colorado Golf Club---a very solid Coore and Crenshaw course.  Almost flawless design.


East Lake---lots of history and golf significance.  Makes for a great day.


Rivermont---a great example of what an affordable local private golf club should be.  Fun holes, great greens.


The Golf Club---an ideal private golf club.  Wonderful golf course in an idyllic environment.


The Presidio---very solid golf course to play in you are in San Francisco and need a game.


Prairie Dunes---a masterpiece with greens that are in the discussion for best in the world.


Southern Hills---very high quality golf course with solid hole after solid hole.


Peachtree---another ideal golf club and course.  It is like a mini-Augusta with its look and feel.  A special place.

[Aaron Marks]

My first attempt at assigning Doak scores...

 I think this list has a nice mix of courses - from City Park 9 to Ballyneal.  

 
 Collindale (2)   - simply trimming some trees could raise this to a 3 or 4.
 Highland Hills (3) - average in every way.  
 Riverdale Dunes (5) - Some really enjoyable holes that don't seem to belong in Colorado.  Too soft to be really linksy.  
 City Park 9 (1) - It has fairways, 'greens' and rough.
 Ravisloe (5) - Really interesting par 3s and 5s.  Par 4s are a little repetetive.  Some outstanding green complexes.
 Idewild (4) - Harder than Ravisloe but less architectual interest and variety.  
 Olympia Fields (North) (8 ) - The epitome of what a parkland course can be.  Elevation changes, deep bunkers, subtle/challenging/fast greens and trees that nicely frame the hole without encroaching too severly on the course.  
 Ute Creek (4) - A few holes that require thought.  
 Murphy Creek (5) - Great risk/reward options off the tee.  Interesting greens.
 Ballyneal (10) - Maybe after a trip to Bandon I'll move this to a 9.  I would have felt cheated to have skipped any hole.

[Richard Hetzel]

Damn, I am hoping to just get 10 in by the end of the summer!

1. Fort Myers CC (FL)
2. Heartland Crossing Links (IN)

[Josh Tarble]

Finally got to 10 different for the year:

Broadmoor (5) My home course (possibly a homer rating).  Some potentially boring holes, but I think the greens make up for a lot of things.  
Brickyard Crossing (5) I love this course too.  Totally unique setting, a few really unique Dye holes, but a few very similar.
Woodland Country Club (6) Was really suprised by this place.  Great variety and some cool holes
Blackwolf Run River (Eight) Awesome course, really great set of par 5s
Whistling Straits (9) One of my all-time favorites...love every hole, yes even #5
Trophy Club (4) very unique for the Indy area, just a few "blah" holes that bring it down slightly, really fun though
Wolf Run (7) incredibly hard, but incredibly unique - probably 6 - 8 holes you will find nowhere else
Quintero (0) hated everything about this abysmal cart-ball course.  Should never have been built
Talking Stick North (5) would love to play this every day.  Great example of a non-penal desert course
Scottsdale National (4) If you like desert golf I think you'll like this place...I just am not a fan of desert golf I've found.  Some very good greens a couple really memorable holes - especially the "mine shaft" on hole 15

[Howard Riefs]

Whistling Straits (9) One of my all-time favorites...love every hole, yes even #5

Even #18?

[Josh Tarble]

Whistling Straits (9) One of my all-time favorites...love every hole, yes even #5

Even #18?

Even #18.  I think it's good for what it is.  A championship worthy finishing hole...that said it could be a lot better by expanding the left part of the fairway.

[Nigel Islam]

Finally got to 10 different for the year:

Broadmoor (5) My home course (possibly a homer rating).  Some potentially boring holes, but I think the greens make up for a lot of things.  
Brickyard Crossing (5) I love this course too.  Totally unique setting, a few really unique Dye holes, but a few very similar.
Woodland Country Club (6) Was really suprised by this place.  Great variety and some cool holes
Blackwolf Run River (Eight) Awesome course, really great set of par 5s
Whistling Straits (9) One of my all-time favorites...love every hole, yes even #5
Trophy Club (4) very unique for the Indy area, just a few "blah" holes that bring it down slightly, really fun though
Wolf Run (7) incredibly hard, but incredibly unique - probably 6 - 8 holes you will find nowhere else
Quintero (0) hated everything about this abysmal cart-ball course.  Should never have been built
Talking Stick North (5) would love to play this every day.  Great example of a non-penal desert course
Scottsdale National (4) If you like desert golf I think you'll like this place...I just am not a fan of desert golf I've found.  Some very good greens a couple really memorable holes - especially the "mine shaft" on hole 15

Josh, interested to hear more about Woodland.

[Colin Shellard]

Haven't managed to find the way Tom does his ratings on the site yet, so these are my ratings / comments for my last 10 different courses (covering about 9 months):

Newmachar Hawkshill - 7 (My Home Course - I like it and feel it is generally underrated by most, but let down by generally flat greens, poor green keeping & Greens committee)
Royal Aberdeen, Balgownie - 9 (my other membership - not much needs to be said)
Oldmeldrum - 4 (a couple of nice holes, but generally a waste of good farm land)
Meldrum House - 6 (Corporate membership - enjoyable to play, some great faetures and good greens, but not a real test of abilities)
Newmachar, Swailend - 5 (Still needs to mature, a bit bland but OK as a second course)
Royal Aberdeen, Silverburn - 5 (2nd course at RAGC, some lovely holes and some not so good. Good short game practice)
Tain - 7 (Lovely OTM course, very enjoyable some v good short par 4s and par 3s)
Nairn - 9 (Brilliant course, love this place and don't mind the 2 more parkland holes)
Deer Park - 1 (also known by some as Oh Dear Park - very few redeeming features and terrible greens - avoid at all costs)
Walton Heath, Old - 8 (My first experience of South England's Heathland courses - lovely routing and layout with excellent turf)

[Josh Tarble]

Josh, interested to hear more about Woodland.

Nigel,
Woodland was really good. More of the minimal Pete Dye instead of tons of earth moving.  Wide fairways with pretty solid green complexes.  There's a ton of fairway, both actual fairways and surrounding the greens.  A few very strategic holes and few with interesting risk/reward scenarios.  9 is an absolute beast of a hole and 18 is pretty nerve wracking for closing holes.  Very walkable too...the back 9 is over some pretty aggressive terrain, but Dye kept the green to tee walks pretty minimal. 

#1, which I understand was built after they sold part of their land, is the only really poor hole, and it's just really really strange, not necessarily bad.

[David Davis]

These updated with my view on the Doak system. Rounding everything down.

Just back from an amazing spring tour where I played my last 10.

Royal Liverpool (Hoylake)     (6)
Royal Lytham & St. Anne      (
Formby                               (7)
Royal Birkdale                      (
North Berwick                      (9) (for me a 9.6 but you can't round up to a 10 no more than you can give a 3 ft eagle putt.
Renaissance Club                 (7)
Castle Course                      (6)
Old Course                          ( but it does slowly grow on me so maybe every time I play I will find it more interesting.
Turnberry                            (7)
Prestwick                            (9)
Troon                                 (
Dundonald Links                  (5)

ok, last 12 but it was one trip so there. A truly great run of courses and links golf.

That was last 10, here are the last 5:

Crystal Downs                                (9) - actually more like 9.6 and could be a 10 for me very easily. Another round down.
Kingsley Club                                 (7)
Arcadia Bluffs                                 (5) if beautiful views are your thing it's a 8 or 9 as far as golf courses with views go.
Oakland Hills South                        (7) very solid architecture but just not my thing from a maintenance, course set up perspective.
Witches Hollow (Pumpkin Ridge)      (5) to be fair I rounded down here as well. A nice course to be a member for sure.

[JStewart]

Arcadia Bluffs                                 (5) if beautiful views are your thing it's a 8 or 9 as far as golf courses with views go.
Oakland Hills South                        (7) very solid architecture but just not my thing from a maintenance, course set up perspective.

The only thing about Arcadia that is a little out of hand are the greens. Otherwise I think Smith/Henderson have a pretty solid layout (though the views do carry the day there). And curious to hear you elaborate on OHCC's "maintenance/course set up."

[Niall C]

Following Colin's lead here's my last ten complete with Doak score's and thoughts on each course;

Killermont (Glasgow GC) – 5 - Old Tom’s last 18 hole design from 1903 with only minor changes from Braid and a redo of bunkering by Dave Thomas in his usual fashion. Layout has changed little since 1903 hence a lot of half par holes which adds to the fun. Very fine parkland course, shame about the bunker style.

Panmure – 7/8 – fine old links. For me the first half dozen holes were the best. Reminded me of the start at Formby. Not sure of some of the holes at the Monifieth end mind you. Generally the green contours are fantastic.

Glasgow Gailes – 8 - better course than its near neighbour Western Gailes. Lots of small changes in recent years have made a big improvement.

Leven – 6 – tends to get overlooked by near neighbour but as I haven’t played Lundin I can’t really compare but from a quick glance over the wall, Lundin perhaps has a richer pallet in terms of colour with all its gorse. That said, Leven is a solid fun course (if that’s not a contradiction) without any real clunker holes.

Whinhill Greenock – 4/5 – muni overlooking town and with some panoramic views. 9 holes by Fernie (1906) and the rest by Braid (1920’s ?) on fine moorland turf, no bunkers, benched greens and a number of “burns” ranging from drainage ditches to babbling brooks. A real step back in time and at just over 5,000 yards its great fun.

Formby – 7/8 –A variety of terrain from fairly flat to heaving dunescape, as well as heathland to links. Overall it works well with some terrific holes. Probably a bit harsh suggesting this course might be a 7.

Formby Ladies – 5/6 – shorter version of the big course although some of the holes certainly wouldn’t be out of place on its neighbour.

Stranraer – 5/6 – Braids last design. Some good solid design as you might expect from Braid with excellent use of the terrain.

Machrihanish Dunes – 7/8 – clearly they have resolved some of the playability issues and still a bit raw but some of the greens live up to MacKenzies description of the old Machrihanish greens.

Renaissance – 7/8 – top notch modern design. As good as the new holes are I still prefer the original holes, particularly the first, which reminds me of the starts at Formby and Panmure. Unlike some I don’t have an issue with the width the management have the fairways at but instead suggest that they could temper some of the gunge off the fairways.

[Tom_Doak]

Broadmoor (5) My home course (possibly a homer rating).  Some potentially boring holes, but I think the greens make up for a lot of things.  

Josh:

You are not being a homer at all here.  Broadmoor is at least a 5 and some would give it a 6.  Your application of the Doak scale seems to be more in line than subsequent posters ... if Nairn is a 9 the scale would need to go up to fifteen!

[David Davis]

Arcadia Bluffs                                 (5) if beautiful views are your thing it's a 8 or 9 as far as golf courses with views go.
Oakland Hills South                        (7) very solid architecture but just not my thing from a maintenance, course set up perspective.

The only thing about Arcadia that is a little out of hand are the greens. Otherwise I think Smith/Henderson have a pretty solid layout (though the views do carry the day there). And curious to hear you elaborate on OHCC's "maintenance/course set up."

OHS - it's a great course, however, it's the opposite of the firm and fast that I love. It's over seeded, over watered with extremely fast soft and receptive greens. Narrow fairways with 6 inch rough as the norm. Way too hard for the average member thus losing a lot of playing pleasure. It's immaculate not a strand of grass out of place. Almost perfect in that respect. However, it could be so much more fun for the members if they created width and various angles of approach (tough to do with fairways that are but a few paces wide in places). More strategy more fun for 5 hcp on up players and less searching for balls that are a couple feet off the fairway.

Just my opinion. If that was done the course would rate higher for me.

[Josh Tarble]

Broadmoor (5) My home course (possibly a homer rating).  Some potentially boring holes, but I think the greens make up for a lot of things.  

Josh:

You are not being a homer at all here.  Broadmoor is at least a 5 and some would give it a 6.  Your application of the Doak scale seems to be more in line than subsequent posters ... if Nairn is a 9 the scale would need to go up to fifteen!

I could see how some would not be as impressed, as you know it's not very flashy...but I love it.  Just a great place to play everyday.  Your team did some great work and Chris Hague has done an awesome job with very limited resources...we're finally getting to the last of the bunker rebuilds this season.  We could stand to take down a few more trees though.

[JStewart]

Arcadia Bluffs                                 (5) if beautiful views are your thing it's a 8 or 9 as far as golf courses with views go.
Oakland Hills South                        (7) very solid architecture but just not my thing from a maintenance, course set up perspective.

The only thing about Arcadia that is a little out of hand are the greens. Otherwise I think Smith/Henderson have a pretty solid layout (though the views do carry the day there). And curious to hear you elaborate on OHCC's "maintenance/course set up."

OHS - it's a great course, however, it's the opposite of the firm and fast that I love. It's over seeded, over watered with extremely fast soft and receptive greens. Narrow fairways with 6 inch rough as the norm. Way too hard for the average member thus losing a lot of playing pleasure. It's immaculate not a strand of grass out of place. Almost perfect in that respect. However, it could be so much more fun for the members if they created width and various angles of approach (tough to do with fairways that are but a few paces wide in places). More strategy more fun for 5 hcp on up players and less searching for balls that are a couple feet off the fairway.

Just my opinion. If that was done the course would rate higher for me.

That's fair. Was it your first time out or have you played it a few times and seen those conditions consistently? I feel like especially early and and late in the season you can catch the course differently just depending on the weather.

[JC Jones]

Arcadia Bluffs                                 (5) if beautiful views are your thing it's a 8 or 9 as far as golf courses with views go.
Oakland Hills South                        (7) very solid architecture but just not my thing from a maintenance, course set up perspective.

The only thing about Arcadia that is a little out of hand are the greens. Otherwise I think Smith/Henderson have a pretty solid layout (though the views do carry the day there). And curious to hear you elaborate on OHCC's "maintenance/course set up."

OHS - it's a great course, however, it's the opposite of the firm and fast that I love. It's over seeded, over watered with extremely fast soft and receptive greens. Narrow fairways with 6 inch rough as the norm. Way too hard for the average member thus losing a lot of playing pleasure. It's immaculate not a strand of grass out of place. Almost perfect in that respect. However, it could be so much more fun for the members if they created width and various angles of approach (tough to do with fairways that are but a few paces wide in places). More strategy more fun for 5 hcp on up players and less searching for balls that are a couple feet off the fairway.

Just my opinion. If that was done the course would rate higher for me.

any chance it rained a bunch before you got there?

http://ohccturf.blogspot.com/2015/05/update.html

[Colin Shellard]

Following Colin's lead here's my last ten complete with Doak score's and thoughts on each course;

Killermont (Glasgow GC) – 5 - Old Tom’s last 18 hole design from 1903 with only minor changes from Braid and a redo of bunkering by Dave Thomas in his usual fashion. Layout has changed little since 1903 hence a lot of half par holes which adds to the fun. Very fine parkland course, shame about the bunker style.

Panmure – 7/8 – fine old links. For me the first half dozen holes were the best. Reminded me of the start at Formby. Not sure of some of the holes at the Monifieth end mind you. Generally the green contours are fantastic.

Glasgow Gailes – 8 - better course than its near neighbour Western Gailes. Lots of small changes in recent years have made a big improvement.

Leven – 6 – tends to get overlooked by near neighbour but as I haven’t played Lundin I can’t really compare but from a quick glance over the wall, Lundin perhaps has a richer pallet in terms of colour with all its gorse. That said, Leven is a solid fun course (if that’s not a contradiction) without any real clunker holes.

Whinhill Greenock – 4/5 – muni overlooking town and with some panoramic views. 9 holes by Fernie (1906) and the rest by Braid (1920’s ?) on fine moorland turf, no bunkers, benched greens and a number of “burns” ranging from drainage ditches to babbling brooks. A real step back in time and at just over 5,000 yards its great fun.

Formby – 7/8 –A variety of terrain from fairly flat to heaving dunescape, as well as heathland to links. Overall it works well with some terrific holes. Probably a bit harsh suggesting this course might be a 7.

Formby Ladies – 5/6 – shorter version of the big course although some of the holes certainly wouldn’t be out of place on its neighbour.

Stranraer – 5/6 – Braids last design. Some good solid design as you might expect from Braid with excellent use of the terrain.

Machrihanish Dunes – 7/8 – clearly they have resolved some of the playability issues and still a bit raw but some of the greens live up to MacKenzies description of the old Machrihanish greens.

Renaissance – 7/8 – top notch modern design. As good as the new holes are I still prefer the original holes, particularly the first, which reminds me of the starts at Formby and Panmure. Unlike some I don’t have an issue with the width the management have the fairways at but instead suggest that they could temper some of the gunge off the fairways.

Niall

Surprised at your comments about Glasgow Gailes, everyone else tells me that Western is much better, although I've yet to play WG. Played GG in the winter and wouldn't have rated it that high, perhaps I should try and get back over there this year.

Can't believe you went to Machrahanish and only played Dunes? I was hoping to make the long drive over there this year stay a couple of nights and play both courses. Glad to hear it's improving though, many negative comments from people I know who have visited, especially when comparing it to Machrahanish Old.

[Ryan Coles]

1. Worplesdon 6 Slightly disappointed. Rated the best of the 3 W's, I'd but I'd put it third. Expecting heather, got largely parkland.

2. St Georges Hill 8 Better than the Berkshire and hard to believe inland golf in England could get any better - until you play Sunningdale

3. West Hill 7 Visually very attractive, excellent Par 3's - would love to be a member.

4. Sunningdale New 8 The more you play, the more you realise the Old is the better of the two, but the 3 best holes at Sunningdale are all on the new.

5. Sunningdale Old 9 Almost perfection. If I was playing one course in England this afternoon, I would choose here.

6. Bowood (Wiltshire) 5 Could and should have been good. Terrible bunkering, both in style and positioning.

7. Royal Porthcawl 7 Didn't really like this course at first play, but on a nice day I warmed to it. Lots of strategy and very difficult in places

8. Royal County Down 10 The best "championship" course I've played. You could start each hole from the middle of the fairway and your problems are still all in front of you. The most attractive links bunkering I've seen.

9. Vilamoura Old 6 Good course amongst lots of average ones. Needs to be played from the correct tees. Par 3's with the exception of the drop hole are quite weak. Trees in the way of the greens let it down.

10. Oceanico Faldo 0 An absolute abomination of a course. How Faldo can bear to have his name attached is beyond me. Played with mid to high handicappers and on the rare occasion they reached a fairway, the ball rolled backwards 30 yards. A waste of a perfectly good orange farm.

[GLawson]

Ryan,

Surprised about your Royal Porthcawl comments.  Was the weather your main issue the first time you played?  Between the understated clubhouse filled with history and a great mix of par-4's and 3's, I think it should be up there with RCD.

Best,
Gordon

[Niall C]

Colin

I used to think Western was better than Gailes until I played them both a few times and then my opinion switched. Glasgow is certainly the preferred course for most pro’s and first class players although don’t hold that against it !

For folks who do a quick hit and run it’s easy to see why Western is preferred given the sea views dunescape etc while Glasgow is a bit more of a slow burn. The more you play it the more you appreciate it.

With Glasgow being the Open Qualifier it is getting a good amount of visitor play and most of the comment seems to be positive. There’s no doubt Glasgow has improved in terms of conditioning and playability although it’s still not a course for novices.

Mach Dunes – it was a spur of the moment thing where I decided at lunchtime to drive round from Glasgow and take advantage of their twilight deal and then drive back. Not having played it before and having heard some horror stories I was pleasantly surprised by how playable it was. I’m probably one of the ones Tom refers to as perverting his scale and this regard I plead guilty. Mach Dunes isn’t in good enough condition to merit an 7/8 by strict definition but it seems perverse to me to give it anything less given the quality of the design.

As an aside, unknown to me, my brother played Machrihanish for the first time that same day.

Niall

[Sean_A]

St Georges Hill...jeepers, its hard to imagine this isn't the best heathland course...absolute delight...between 8 and 7 so in Doak fashion a 7...my score 1*...give me more plays and I could see this course rising to 8...need to understand the greens better

Burnham & Berrow x4  7 (real Doak 5, but he is mistaken  )...my score 1*

Castle Stuart...best modern course I have seen and one of the few I would like to see again...8 (real Doak 7)...my score 1*

Carnegie Links...very surprised by this course as it is better than I imagined. Only real issue holding it back from a 7 is the back to back water holes on 11 & 12...bad mistake design-wise...6 (real Doak 5)...my score NR (way too expensive)

Dornoch...I will never see this course as a 9 or 10...the greens are too similar for that sort of distinction, the 16th is an abomination and the finish after 14 is far from stellar...7  (real Doak 10)...my score 1*

Harborne....very fine...6 (Real Doak 5)...my score R

Blackwell...very fine...6  (no Doak...should be Doaked)...my score r

3* Don’t Miss For Any Reason...consider playing only this course the entire trip         
2* Plan A Trip Around This Course...play it more than once            
1* Worth An Unscheduled Overnight Detour            
R  Worth A Significant Daytrip   (rule of thumb is to never spend more time in the car than it takes to play and have drinks)         
r  A Good Fall Back On Course If Nearby     
NR  Not recommended   

Ciao      

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