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Jason Topp

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While I will also put this tour on the Topp's Travels thread, I think this course is sufficiently unique that it deserves its own thread. John Mayhugh took these pictures and I will allow him to add other pictures if he so desires.

Town & Country is squeezed into 100 acres on the banks of the Mississippi in St. Paul.  Given John’s love of quirky courses in the UK, I knew this course was a no-brainer for our itinerary.

A simple look at the scorecard tells you Town & Country is unique:
   4 (324) ,3(110), 3 (163), 5 (490),4 (354), 4 (468), 4 (354), 4 (366), 4 (414) Out= par 35 (3026)
   4 (377), 3 (186), 5 (533), 4 (283), 3 (230), 5 (552), 5 (521), 5 (522), 3 (170)   In = par 37 (3355);

Total = par 72 (6400).

The numbers alone are interesting.  You have two par threes in a row early in the round.  After 6 par fours in a row from 5-10 you only have one left – the 13th – and that is of the driveable variety.   You finish with three par fives and a par three.  As a kicker, the yardage listed for the front and back nines does not equal the total yardage listed for the course.    

Numbers alone do not come close to giving a sense of Town & Country.   Many of the holes make no logical sense but are a hoot to play.  

The first tee:


Looking back at the 110 yard uphill 2nd.  Front pin is difficult because of green slopes.  I think I was in a better position hitting this chip than John was on the middle of the green:



The 4th hole plays down to a valley and then back up with a blind second on a short par five:


The 5th is a down and back up 350 yard par 4 with a steeply sloped back to front green.  I have seen putts go back down the hill when the greens are crispy.  It looks like they added some rough to prevent that experience:



The distance equation changes abruptly on the 468 yard par four 6th.  A good drive leaves you this view for your second.  The challenge lies not only in guessing the line and hitting the ball hard enough to reach the green.  You also need to hit your second high enough to clear the slope:



This is the view Mayhugh had for his second at the 415 yard 9th.



I watched his shot from this vantage point.  I swear I heard John complaining a bit as his shot flew in the air.  It landed 30 yards short of the green ran left and disappeared.  Needless to say he won the hole.



The 10th is one of the best on the course – 377 yards to a green benched into a hillside.  75% of balls that hit the hill right of the green stay there.  



A closer view of the green:



The 15th is the first of three par fives in a row.  Even though the hole is 552 yards long, a ball that gets past the crest of the hill 100 yards short of the green has a chance to get there.  Wedge shots are also interesting because you need to either choose to fly it down or use the slope.  Oblivion lurks behind the green if you are too aggressive or wind up hitting a shot in between those options:



The par 3 finisher.  Like the finish at the PGA tour event last weekend, such a hole can prove to be a dramatic method for deciding a match.



« Last Edit: August 02, 2011, 03:38:10 PM by Jason Topp »

Jeff Shelman

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Re: Town & Country - St Paul Minnesota - A blind deuce on a par four
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2011, 03:25:14 PM »
I think I told you this when we played, but earlier this season I made a blind deuce on No. 8 at Southview.

Equally as unlikely.

PCCraig

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Re: Town & Country - St Paul Minnesota - A blind deuce on a par four
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2011, 03:26:22 PM »
Jason,

Thanks for posting these pictures. I've heard T&C is quirky, but wow... :o

I'll need to get out there and check it out sometime soon.
H.P.S.

Eric Smith

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Re: Town & Country - St Paul Minnesota - A blind deuce on a par four
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2011, 03:36:25 PM »
Nice 2, John!

The benched green on 10 reminds me of a feature I've seen on a NLE course in Knoxville (Cedar Hills). Fun shot.

 

Tyler Kearns

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Re: Town & Country - St Paul Minnesota - A blind deuce on a par four
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2011, 08:42:14 PM »
Jason,

Thanks for posting these pictures, I played Town & Country Club back in 1994 as part of our annual Jr. matches between Minnesota & Manitoba. Hilary Lunke's (then Homeyer) was playing for Minnesota that year, and she teed it up with the guys for the practice rounds.  A great swing, great game and most likely would have clobbered me.

While I remembered the odd par sequence of the golf course, I forgot how unique the 10th green site was, and the number of blind or potentially blind shots there were. I would really love to go back and play again, with an architectural eye. If I am not mistaken, Town & Country Club is one of the oldest clubs in the United States.

TK

David Harshbarger

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Re: Town & Country - St Paul Minnesota - A blind deuce on a par four
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2011, 09:22:56 PM »
Jason,

This is fantastic, the antithesis of "fair".  This reminds of mountain biking: sometimes you get slick, rocky, off-camber trails.  They aren't fair, and often you slide or fall.  Sure, it sucks when the trail bites your butt, but that's why you come back, because you'd rather chance a butt-bite for the thrill than spend mindless hours on a rail-trail.

Thanks for sharing,

Dave
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Bruce Leland

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Re: Town & Country - St Paul Minnesota - A blind deuce on a par four
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2011, 12:27:12 AM »
Jason,

Thanks for posting these pictures, I played Town & Country Club back in 1994 as part of our annual Jr. matches between Minnesota & Manitoba. Hilary Lunke's (then Homeyer) was playing for Minnesota that year, and she teed it up with the guys for the practice rounds.  A great swing, great game and most likely would have clobbered me.

While I remembered the odd par sequence of the golf course, I forgot how unique the 10th green site was, and the number of blind or potentially blind shots there were. I would really love to go back and play again, with an architectural eye. If I am not mistaken, Town & Country Club is one of the oldest clubs in the United States.

TK
The club lists its' pedigree on their website which states "The first round of golf in Minnesota was played at the historic Town & Country Club of Saint Paul in 1893." 
"The mystique of Muirfield lingers on. So does the memory of Carnoustie's foreboding. So does the scenic wonder of Turnberry and the haunting incredibility of Prestwick, and the pleasant deception of Troon. But put them altogether and St. Andrew's can play their low ball for atmosphere." Dan Jenkins

John Mayhugh

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Re: Town & Country - St Paul Minnesota - A blind deuce on a par four
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2011, 08:10:36 AM »
Town & Country supposedly is the second-oldest club on its original site in the US.

The course is quirky, and the photos don't really show how extreme some of the contours are.   But it's also very playable, and fun.  I think most anyone could enjoy it as long as they can tolerate a few blind shots and don't obsess over the way hole pars are distributed.  Conditioning was as good as anywhere I saw on the trip.

Worthy of a complete profile. I may try to put one together.

John_Conley

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Re: Town & Country - St Paul Minnesota - A blind deuce on a par four
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2011, 11:38:52 AM »
Thanks for posting this, guys.  I have never been to T&C, probably the lone omission amongst the old private clubs in the area.  Always heard it was crazy.

Jason Topp

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Re: Town & Country - St Paul Minnesota - A blind deuce on a par four
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2011, 11:58:27 AM »
Thanks for posting this, guys.  I have never been to T&C, probably the lone omission amongst the old private clubs in the area.  Always heard it was crazy.

The odd thing is that the course does not seem that strange when you play it - at least not to me.  Even though many shots are blind, you have sufficient clues to know where to hit the ball, especially after you have played it once.  I played on a hilly course as a kid so blind shots do not seem that unusual to me.

I played in their member-guest a few times around 10 years ago and the holes are really fun for match play.  Fortunes can swing wilidly while you play many of the holes. 

Jason Topp

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Re: Town & Country - St Paul Minnesota - A blind deuce on a par four
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2011, 11:59:40 AM »

While I remembered the odd par sequence of the golf course, I forgot how unique the 10th green site was, and the number of blind or potentially blind shots there were. I would really love to go back and play again, with an architectural eye. TK

I would love to get your take on the course sometime. 

Mark Johnson

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Re: Town & Country - St Paul Minnesota - A blind deuce on a par four
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2011, 12:42:23 PM »
mid am is there next year... looking forward to it

Dan Kelly

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Re: Town & Country - St Paul Minnesota - A blind deuce on a par four
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2011, 08:44:26 PM »
Town and Country is just pure old fun -- unless the greens are running fast, when it becomes a 6,400 yard brute. I think the greens are every bit as demanding as Oak Ridge's when you're putting back down them and they're fast.

Great pictures, Jason.

Great shot, John!
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Chris Tritabaugh

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Re: Town & Country - St Paul Minnesota - A blind deuce on a par four
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2011, 09:42:11 PM »
Nice post Jason. T&C is a very special place for me. Started working there in the spring of 98 when I was a sophomore at the UofMN. Worked there full time summer of 1999 and 2000, then after 2001 at St. Cloud Country Club I went back to T&C as the assistant for 2002-2006. Worked out there with one of my best buddies and my brother, we had a blast working all day then coming back and playing in the evenings. I also met my wife while working there in the summer of 2003. Bill Larson is the superintendent (also my wife's uncle) and the conditioning is always fantastic. We were there for a wedding a couple Saturday's ago and I took a quick ride around the course with Bill. The place looked great, maybe the best I have ever seen it look. Its also worth noting they have one of the best turfcare facilities in the country. It is awesome and worth seeing if you are in this business, even if you are not.

Some comments on the course. To me there is good quirky and bad quirky, T&C is good quirky all the way around. Jason, I believe the golf course sites on just 90 acres. The other 10 are the clubhouse across the road.

#1 is a fun start with a lot of slope to the left.
#2 is one of my favorite holes anywhere.
#3 is a good 3 which got much better with the removal of some encroaching pines just off the left front of the tee.
#4 is the first driver of the round and two good shots give you a decent eagle chance.
#5 is a fun hole. The strip of rough below the green is new and I haven't seen it from below so I don't know how it looks from that vantage point. The slope is very steep and Bill is mowing the approaches and fairways tighter than when I was there so my guess is balls were rolling a long way back down the hill. The strip of rough is not new to T&C. Both 4 and 6 were fairway up the hills before rough replaced it in 96 or 97.
#6 is a beastly long par 4 with that crazy hill to navigate on the second shot.
#7 plays along Cretin Ave and is ok.
#8 also play along Cretin Ave and is one of my favorite holes out there.
#9 is great if you don't have the approach shot John had. One of the best views of downtown Mpls in the Twin Cities.
#10 second favorite hole. They removed a monster spruce tree which marked the 150 on the right side of the fairway. A nice improvement. Also removed a number of trees on the left side of the green due to poor turf conditions. They get the last one out of there and its really a great hole. The slope is already enough of a hazard, don't need the trees as well. Jason, I found the right side slope the opposite of what you said. Seems to me about 75% of the ball hit up there came down to the green. I hit up there a lot and really don't remember being on that side hill. From the left side of the fairway it was a good backboard.
#11 is a really great par 3 especially from the back tee. Huge slope on the left and OB tight on the left.
#12 longish 5 with a tiny green site. Good hole.
#13 last 4 driveable but with all sorts of danger. Go for it and miss and you are looking at double. Great short 4. One hole in one has been made here and the gentleman who made it just passed.
#14 long sort of blah 3 with a spruce backdrop. Least favorite hole on the course by far.
#15 fun hole. For big events my brother and I would roll a ball down the slope and where ever it stopped on the green was where we cut the hole. Balls went to the back right, we called it the double-eagle hole. Don't think anyone ever made one.
#16 Really good 5 with a kidney bean shaped green. Great hole.
#17 awkward driving hole. Green used to be uncupable in the front but they made a change this year. Made the front approach and extended the green farther to the left. A good change.
#18 not a great hole and Rick is right not as tight as it looks but tighter now than when I was first there. There are plans to change this hole in the near future.

T&C is a really fun course to play. I enjoyed my time there and will always have found memories of working on and playing the course.
#14

Tyler Kearns

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Re: Town & Country - St Paul Minnesota - A blind deuce on a par four
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2011, 10:22:09 PM »

While I remembered the odd par sequence of the golf course, I forgot how unique the 10th green site was, and the number of blind or potentially blind shots there were. I would really love to go back and play again, with an architectural eye. TK

I would love to get your take on the course sometime. 

Jason,

It's been a long time since I played there, and it was in competition, so my focus wasn't exactly on the architectural nuances of the course, in addition I was only 15 and my interest in architecture was only starting to bubble to the surface. That being said, I do remember having a lot of fun on the course, and that is a good means test for the quality of any golf course.

Having those trees removed from the left hand side of #10 green is a big improvement, and really highlights the slope left of the green, I barely recognized the hole when I saw the photos you posted.

I need to get down there and play again to make an honest assessment. Looks like you guys had a fun tour around Minnesota, I really do need to make the drive down and experience it for myself. It's only a 6-7 hour drive, I really don't have any excuses.

TK

PCCraig

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Re: Town & Country - St Paul Minnesota - A blind deuce on a par four
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2011, 02:35:26 PM »
Does anyone know who designed Town & Country? Has there been much or any work done to the course?
H.P.S.

Jason Topp

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Re: Town & Country - St Paul Minnesota - A blind deuce on a par four
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2011, 05:40:01 PM »
Does anyone know who designed Town & Country? Has there been much or any work done to the course?

Pat. There have been a number of alterations. The club website has some history if i remember correctly. 

Tyler Kearns

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Re: Town & Country - St Paul Minnesota - A blind deuce on a par four
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2011, 10:48:18 AM »
Does anyone know who designed Town & Country? Has there been much or any work done to the course?

Pat. There have been a number of alterations. The club website has some history if i remember correctly. 

Cornish & Whitten credit the course design to George McRee, with renovations by Robert Foulis & subsequently by Dick Nugent.

I just finished reading Philip Young's book on Tillinghast, and he is listed as completing some renovation work at the club, I think during his tour for the PGA of America. I don't have the book in front of me, but I think it details Tillie's work to the 12th green, and perhaps a bit more.

TK

PCCraig

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Re: Town & Country - St Paul Minnesota - A blind deuce on a par four
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2011, 10:56:33 AM »
Does anyone know who designed Town & Country? Has there been much or any work done to the course?

Pat. There have been a number of alterations. The club website has some history if i remember correctly.  

Cornish & Whitten credit the course design to George McRee, with renovations by Robert Foulis & subsequently by Dick Nugent.

I just finished reading Philip Young's book on Tillinghast, and he is listed as completing some renovation work at the club, I think during his tour for the PGA of America. I don't have the book in front of me, but I think it details Tillie's work to the 12th green, and perhaps a bit more.

TK

Thanks Tyler.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2011, 03:06:59 PM by P. Craig »
H.P.S.

PCCraig

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Re: Town & Country - St Paul Minnesota - A blind deuce on a par four
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2012, 12:07:14 PM »
I meant to post this in Eric's thread. Sorry.
H.P.S.

PCCraig

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Re: Town & Country - St Paul Minnesota - A blind deuce on a par four
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2012, 12:08:05 PM »
I meant to post this in Eric's thread. Sorry.
H.P.S.