[Bart Bradley]

Up until April, I had never been to Palmetto.  But through reseach (talking to people, reading reviews, pictures), I knew almost exactly what I was in for when I visited.  It's rare that I am surprised one standard deviation away from what my idea of a place is going in.  That's what so good about the truly great places.  I've researched them to death, and they STILL exceed what I was expecting.

I don't like this approach personally--it makes it sound like you've already made up your mind before the visit and just use the actual round to confirm what you already know. I do my own research, but I think at least a little mystery makes the round more special.

Mystery is one thing, ignorance is another.  I don't have the time or money to be ignorant of where I play.  

Also, on your comment about one course of a certain architect vs. another.  If a chef has made his reputation making hamburgers for years and years, and I am not a fan of his burgers, then why would I subject myself to another one?  Worse, he branches out and makes tacos, why would his tacos be better than the guy that's made a career of making great tacos.  He's a burger guy, not at taco guy.

Ben:

I don't know about you.  But I don't want to be known as a one-trick pony.  I am certain that artists and designers in all fields evolve and change over time.  Monet did not start out with the impressionistic style that eventually made him quite famous.  Thank God he was allowed to evolve and grow as an artist.  Even the golf architects you admire don't want to be put into a stylistic box, I can guarantee that.  

Bart

[Jud_T]

I know I don't care for this artist.  If he wakes up tomorrow as the second coming of Jackson Pollock I may miss out.  I can live with that possibility.

[Bart Bradley]

Jud:

I think that is the point.  You can live with a closed mind and are willing to risk missing out because you have preconceived notions.  Andy is telling you that there is a lot to learn from all sorts of architecture and golf courses and that he doesn't wish to miss it.  Both are fine points of view.  I am in Andy's camp.  I'd rather have a broader perspective.

Bart

[Jud_T]

Bart,

What's closed about it? I'm not saying I'm unwilling to see new artists work.  I'm saying I've seen dozens of Leroy Niemans.  I have yet to see one that I like.  If a new exhibition of his work comes to my local gallery, why should I pay to see it? 

[George Pazin]

There is a huge difference between having a closed mind and making discerning, informed choices - even if they are not 100% informed. I'd argue one can never been 100% informed. Some of us just feel comfortable making conclusive judgments earlier in the process.

[Bart Bradley]

Bart,

What's closed about it? I'm not saying I'm unwilling to see new artists work.  I'm saying I've seen dozens of Leroy Niemans.  I have yet to see one that I like.  If a new exhibition of his work comes to my local gallery, why should I pay to see it? 

Right, you've seen dozens of Niemans and noone has said he has changed his style.

In the case of Fazio, you've seen less than dozens and people with good intentions are telling you that some of his most recent work is different and better than what came previously.  So do you have an open mind and willingness to go and check it out or have you come to a "conclusive judgement" already?

Bart

[Jud_T]

I didn't say I was unwilling to see it.  I'm more than willing and I like some of his work.  I simply said I wouldn't plan a special trip around it and drop a grand just to see it....

[Greg Tallman]

Bart,

What's closed about it? I'm not saying I'm unwilling to see new artists work.  I'm saying I've seen dozens of Leroy Niemans.  I have yet to see one that I like.  If a new exhibition of his work comes to my local gallery, why should I pay to see it? 

Jud, Following your visit to Cabo you noted that Cabo del Sol "shattered your preconceptions" about Nicklaus' design work. That said would you thus seek out some of his work post CDS or simply write it off to a great site?

[Joe_Tucholski]

Maybe I'm wrong but I feel like the divide is between those that are risk seeking and those that are risk averse.  Personal preferences play into you calculations on expected rewards (which I guess is where the real disagreements will not be settled).

[Jud_T]

Bart,

What's closed about it? I'm not saying I'm unwilling to see new artists work.  I'm saying I've seen dozens of Leroy Niemans.  I have yet to see one that I like.  If a new exhibition of his work comes to my local gallery, why should I pay to see it? 

Jud, Following your visit to Cabo you noted that Cabo del Sol "shattered your preconceptions" about Nicklaus' design work. That said would you thus seek out some of his work post CDS or simply write it off to a great site?

Good question.  I'd say I'm somewhat more likely to seek out his work as a result.  But I didn't go to Cabo to play CDS or any of the courses down there, I went on vacation with my family and snuck in a few rounds.  For reference, I still haven't ventured out to his Harbor Shores course in Benton Harbor based on discussions here even though I pass by every time on the way to Kingsley and I probably won't make it out to Dismal until the Doak course is finished.  Go ahead and call me closed minded.  That's what happens when you get old and fat...

[Eric Smith]

I wonder how many went to Bandon Dunes (pre Pacific Dunes), seeking out David Kidd's work?

I would think that most, if not all, traveled there in those days because of the place, not because of the designer.

[George Pazin]

In the case of Fazio, you've seen less than dozens and people with good intentions are telling you that some of his most recent work is different and better than what came previously.  So do you have an open mind and willingness to go and check it out or have you come to a "conclusive judgement" already?

Lots of things go into making a decision. One must evaluate those offering the opinions that his recent work is different and better. One must also consider what other options one has at his disposal. And that's just the start of the process.

Further, what harm comes from someone making a "conclusive judgment" without what someone else feels is proper due diligence? Last time I checked, neither Jud nor I had the ability to close golf courses. Both of us have said we're ok with missing out on something in pursuit of something we think we prefer. Life is all about making choices.

I make most of my judgments on golf based on time, money and friends, with the last of those being the biggest factor.

[Greg Tallman]

Bart,

What's closed about it? I'm not saying I'm unwilling to see new artists work.  I'm saying I've seen dozens of Leroy Niemans.  I have yet to see one that I like.  If a new exhibition of his work comes to my local gallery, why should I pay to see it? 

Jud, Following your visit to Cabo you noted that Cabo del Sol "shattered your preconceptions" about Nicklaus' design work. That said would you thus seek out some of his work post CDS or simply write it off to a great site?

Good question.  I'd say I'm somewhat more likely to seek out his work as a result.  But I didn't go to Cabo to play CDS or any of the courses down there, I went on vacation with my family and snuck in a few rounds.  For reference, I still haven't ventured out to his Harbor Shores course in Benton Harbor based on discussions here even though I pass by every time on the way to Kingsley and I probably won't make it out to Dismal until the Doak course is finished.  Go ahead and call me closed minded.  That's what happens when you get old and fat...

LMAO - If you ever make it down sans familia please allow me to treat you to a tequila or four... maybe you'd loosen up and speak your mind a bit!  You need to see the new 5-6-7 completely finished. Reworked 5 opens at the end of the month.

[JC Jones]

If there is one thing I can tell you about Jud Tigerman is that he is, in fact, OLD.

I see both sides of the debate and I tend to be one who seeks out all kinds of courses but only those that come recommended.  I think, however, that Jud has a point.  If you were a senior debt holder of Chrysler and you got screwed over in the re-writing of the bankruptcy code by Obama, you're going to be hesitant to become a senior debt holder again in Company X so long as Obama is in office; regardless of the number of assurances you are getting that you'll be able to retain your priority should something happen to Company X.

[Bart Bradley]

In the case of Fazio, you've seen less than dozens and people with good intentions are telling you that some of his most recent work is different and better than what came previously.  So do you have an open mind and willingness to go and check it out or have you come to a "conclusive judgement" already?

Lots of things go into making a decision. One must evaluate those offering the opinions that his recent work is different and better. One must also consider what other options one has at his disposal. And that's just the start of the process.

Further, what harm comes from someone making a "conclusive judgment" without what someone else feels is proper due diligence? Last time I checked, neither Jud nor I had the ability to close golf courses. Both of us have said we're ok with missing out on something in pursuit of something we think we prefer. Life is all about making choices.

I make most of my judgments on golf based on time, money and friends, with the last of those being the biggest factor.

George, I said earlier that "both are fine points of view".  You are welcome to this position.  You are welcome to make conclusive judgments as early as you see fit.  

I think it is a big wonderful world out there and I'd like to see and learn as much of it as possible.

Bart

[George Pazin]

I think it is a big wonderful world out there and I'd like to see and learn as much of it as possible.

Bart

As with "closed mind", do you not see the insult in this statement?

We all make choices somewhere along the line about what we value and where we seek knowledge.

[Bart Bradley]

I think it is a big wonderful world out there and I'd like to see and learn as much of it as possible.

Bart

As with "closed mind", do you not see the insult in this statement?

We all make choices somewhere along the line about what we value and where we seek knowledge.

George:

I apologize for using closed minded.  I do think that when you say that you have made a "conclusive judgment", you imply that your mind has been made-up.  We all certainly reach a point where the information presented to us causes us to reach a judgment... I would argue however that, perhaps, in the case of art/architecture those judgments should not be conclusive (final).

Forgive me for insulting you. 

Bart

[Kalen Braley]

Once again,

I think we're losing perspective here.  The initial post was about forgoing a course...namely Gozzer that it is in the 99.99 percentile... in favor of seeing another course which is also in the same percentile.

We're not talking about artist paintings, Obama bankruptcy code, choosing between various forms of torture, or a Doak 4 vs a Doak 9.

We're talking about forgoing seeing one of the finest courses on the planet because of a preconcieved notion that another one of the finest courses on the planet is just a little bit better.

This to me is where one truly indeed "misses out" and is where the crazy enters the equation! 

[George Pazin]

I used "conclusive judgment" because others used it - that's why it's in quotation marks. I make conclusive - ie "final" - judgments about very few things, gca isn't one of them. I do make playing decisions based on a variety of criteria, as I'd guess even the most broad-minded-claiming on here do. I'll go one step further and state that every person on here makes discriminating choices at some point; otherwise the logical conclusion is that we all make every effort to travel to all ends of the world to make fully informed conclusive judgments, rather than rash ones... Do you accept every invite to play everywhere based on being more informed, more open and learning more? I wish I could, I have limits.

Gotta work a lot harder than that to insult me, I was just curious as to whether your chosen words were intentional.

Kalen -

We're all about crazy on here...

[Andy Troeger]

The original comment, by the way, really applied to the group as a whole. Obviously the group only functions based on its individual members, but its not about whether every GCA'er has the means and ambition to go see every course. No one GCA'er should be compelled to see any course that doesn't interest them. The point is that there are guys out there that would make special trips for Victoria National or Gozzer Ranch, and this site would be better with some of that point of view to create interesting discussions. 

In a way though, those of who that have disagreed with me have made me feel stronger about my point. If a certain percentage of GCA'ers are only interested in seeing a certain subset of courses, and every GCA'er that "limits" themselves to what they like and then all like and recommend the same general things, then that's all we are going to talk about. Obviously that's a bit of an exaggeration--some guys do get around to everything and that leads to some discussion of other courses, but its a small percentage of the whole.

Jud,
I'm admittedly curious--you mentioned seeing dozens of those paintings. How many Fazio courses have you actually played? How many that are in the US Top 100 on anybody's list? I'm just trying to figure out where you're coming from a bit better.

[Andy Troeger]

Further, what harm comes from someone making a "conclusive judgment" without what someone else feels is proper due diligence? Last time I checked, neither Jud nor I had the ability to close golf courses. Both of us have said we're ok with missing out on something in pursuit of something we think we prefer. Life is all about making choices.

George,
I think there's a risk here. By participating here we all I think at least pretend to be some kind of knowledgeable about golf course architecture. If not, then why contribute anything. I think members of this group disaparage architects and styles far too frequently without much of a base of knowledge upon which to make that judgement, and then don't disclose that their base is pretty flimsy. Others praise what they know in a comparative fashion without really stating that its the ONLY thing they really know.

Its not the decision not to play, its the way posters participate here after making that decision that creates the potential issue.

[Ben Sims]

Andy and Bart,

I have sat in the bar of one of the worlds greatest golf resorts and heard a denture-toothed, corvette-driving, richer-than-you-and-I-want-you-to-know-it, slob-of-a-man sit and tell me that The Old Course was a goat track.  I politely told him that he was full of zebra dung.  He asked if I had ever been and I said no.  He then went on to say that my opinion was baseless because I had never seen it, he had, and he had also played countless other "great" golf courses, so he knew what he was talking about.  I made my mind up very early in my golf architecture obsession days that there was now a subset of golfers that I could no longer trust for valid opinion.  The subset is easy to recognize.   There is wisdom in knowing what kind of person you are.   

To say because of that kind of research I am "conclusive" with my opinion of a place before playing it is giving me too much credit.  There's nothing conclusive about it.  It just separates wheat from chaff earlier than most of you would care to recognize as necessary.  I never said I am unwilling to play somewhere.  And to insinuate that because I have preferences it makes me unable to see a big beautiful world and I am closed minded is a gross mis-characterization. 

There must be an idea of quality in your mind that affects where you play. 

[Jud_T]

Andy:

Butler National- (2)
The Glen Club (4)
Conway Farms (4)
Desert @ Vintage Club (1)
Forest Creek N (1)
Forest Creek S (2)
Pinehurst #4 (2)
Pinehurst #8 (2)
Wynn Golf Club (2)
TPC Myrtle Beach (2)

Granted not many of his highest rated courses, but a representative sampling nevertheless and 4 more than my Doak total.

[Mark Saltzman]

Andy:

Butler National- (2)
The Glen Club (4)
Conway Farms (4)
Desert @ Vintage Club (1)
Forest Creek N (1)
Forest Creek S (2)
Pinehurst #4 (2)
Pinehurst #8 (2)
Wynn Golf Club (2)
TPC Myrtle Beach (2)

Granted not many of his highest rated courses, but a representative sampling nevertheless and 4 more than my Doak total.

Are the numbers in brackets the # of times played, or Doak score?

[Andy Troeger]

Jud,
That's an interesting sample. To be fair, I've heard mixed things about most of those courses and only have played Butler National without being much of a fan--its very difficult but not something I'd enjoy regularly. I can certainly see how you'd start making value judgements after 10 courses though--but I can tell you I'd play Gozzer and Victoria National 9-1 over Butler in ten rounds.

Ben,
We all absolutely have to make judgements about when and where to play. I'm fortunate in that I'll get to see about 20 new courses this year and consider it a slow one. I tend to plan trips expecting to stay a few days and play a few courses. There's probably always 1-2 that are the primary reason for the trip, 1-2 that are added bonus places that wouldn't be worth a trip on their own, and sometimes one reach that I'm trying based on a recommendation even if it doesn't look like something I'd love to see. I went to Ohio to play golf with my uncle last summer based around the opportunity to play Inverness and Scioto. We set up NCR South as the third round as he had a friend in Dayton and I'd heard decent things, but it was the #3 priority course before the trip and not one I knew much about. It ended up being my favorite round of the bunch. I've played Cog Hill and Rich Harvest on recent trips back to Indiana and didn't especially care for either one. I'm still glad I gave them a shot, but they were admittedly rounds on days when I was in an area with time to play with my Dad before flights back to Albuquerque. I'll give anything that gets a recommendation a chance (at some level), whether its from here or from one of the lists. Some are better than others, but I rarely feel like I wasted a day.

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