[JC Jones]

 I try to judge the course by the course, keeping who built it out of the equation.

Friends don't let friends play Art Hills courses 

[Ben Sims]

Andy -

I'm the exact opposite - I don't care about finding new courses, I'd rather enjoy courses I've enjoyed in the past unless I am offered the opportunity for something special. And I don't think I have architecture figured out, but I do think I have a really good grasp of what I like and would enjoy. Playing Sheep Ranch has far greater appeal to me than playing Bandon Dunes or Trails, for my own personal reasons.

George,

I know you wrote above that you most closely identfiy with mine and Jud's take on this subject.  But I'd like to seperate our ideas by saying that I DO care about finding new things.  Only that I care about finding the "right" new things.  This is why unfettered opinion from guys I trust on this site and from elsewhere are so important in how I determine where I want to spend my money. 

Up until April, I had never been to Palmetto.  But through reseach (talking to people, reading reviews, pictures), I knew almost exactly what I was in for when I visited.  It's rare that I am surprised one standard deviation away from what my idea of a place is going in.  That's what so good about the truly great places.  I've researched them to death, and they STILL exceed what I was expecting.

[Jud_T]

Ben,

Well said.  I'd never heard of Kingsley until I started lurking here, or Spring Valley, Big Fish, Highlands of Elgin, Belvedere etc., etc..  I've also avoided a number of courses that shall remain nameless as I can tell from talking to folks that, although exclusive or buzz courses, they probably aren't my cup of tea.  Using a Bayesian function of expected value (or love of GCA) will maximize utility of time, money and fun.

[George Pazin]

A fair distinction, Ben.

My statement wasn't really true literally - there are tons of courses new to me that I am eager to see - Wolf Point and Barnbougle top the list. What I meant was I am not choosing them simply because they are new and different, but rather for other reasons.

[Adam Clayman]

  While I too like the lay-of-the-land stylings of the post-modernists and old dead guys, my archtectural world was absolutely rocked by those two courses, neither of which will sniff a top whatever list.   I can't fathom having missed either.  

Mike

Mike, Have you in the past, or could you, articulate what it was that made you feel this way?

[Greg Tallman]

 I try to judge the course by the course, keeping who built it out of the equation.

Friends don't let friends play Art Hills courses  

Yet one jumped up to #68 in the world in the latest GOLF Magazine ranking.  

Have no idea how good Oitavos Dunes is but it has a solid marketing plan behind it that is for certain.

On another note those of you who crave quirk and funk and just plain weird should not miss Paraiso del Mar in La Paz, BCS, México (about 2 hours north of Cabo). It has more thyan enough weirdness for this crowd. WIll not be mistaken for a great routing but the individual holes would be appreciated by many/most on this site. Should be getting back in condition these days. Played it in early June and they were just bringing it back after what appeared to be a near abandonment.

[Kalen Braley]

I guess you can put me squarely in the Andy camp as well... and I'm glad Andy made that last post because he really did a good job of explaining that at the end of the day, it really is just about personal preferences.

I too am of the explorer mindest.  I love seeing something new, perhaps even hopefully finding that quirky diamond in the rough.  Showing up at some out of the way course in the middle of the nowhere and meeting up with a local and having a good old time.  Don't get me wrong, I love the Pac Dunes, Chambers Bays, and Wine Valleys as much as the next guy....but it just plain doesn't end there for me.

I too work on limited resources and limited time constraints. But at the end of the day, even if I am just playing a Doak 3 or 4 that's off the beaten path that I've never played before...its still an awesome day because i'm outside and playing golf and just enjoying it all.

Not to get all sappy or nothing, but life really is about the journey, not so much the destination!   

[Dave McCollum]

So many opinions.  So many women, so little time.  It’s all good.  Here are some more from the peanut gallery:  I believe that playing a course more than once is the only way for me to appreciate the architecture.  I guess I’m a slow learner.  That said, do I do this?  Not really, mostly because of time, opportunity, and money.

I’m a little suspicious of my interest in golf architecture.  As I’ve said before, it sometimes seems to me as a pseudo intellectual justification for my love of a simple (some would say stupid) game.  I have other, more practical reasons, for wanting to learn something about design.  Chief among these is that I get to do it in the dirt from time to time.  Not as designer, just as a dumb slob in the golf biz.
  
This thread started off, if I can remember that far back, saying something like why would someone play RCCC and not include Gozzer on the same trip?  As if Gozzer were in the same neighborhood.  Out west, I suppose it is, but its still 250 miles and 4 hours away.  Old Works and RCCC, sure.  I can only speak for myself, but I don’t often plan a golf trip around playing every interesting course within a 250 mile radius of the primary course or courses that I want to see.  Usually these trips are just to play golf with some pals.  I indulge my muse by trying to play something interesting while I’m at it.  For me it is fun and informative to take some average Joe golfers to a really good course and observe their reactions.  These guys wouldn’t have a clue about most things discussed on this site or why grown men waste their time here.  They certainly couldn’t give a flying f**k about who designed a course.  In their own way, however subliminally, they do recognize quality when they see it; they just don’t know why.   Not sure I really do either, but enjoy trying.
 
Everyone here is a collector to some degree.  Everyone has their own reasons.  

That’s my two cents for now.  Got stuff to do.

[Kalen Braley]

Dave,

The reason why the Gozzer/ RCCC scenario is an interesting one is because Spokane is the closest major airport to RCCC.  When you fly into Spokane, you can literally see Gozzer from the freeway on the drive over... (if you know where to look). 

Sure if RCCC were in a majorly populated area, then yes I could see why someone wouldn't want to drive 250 miles out of thier way to see Gozzer.  But when you pass right by it, not stopping in if you have access would be a big mistake in both Andy's view and mine.

[Mike Hendren]

Fair question, Adam.  The more I see and play the work of Raynor and Banks the more amazed I am that they could adapt templates holes, or partial elements thereof, to various sites without clumsily forcing them onto the land.  It would seem their design and construction style would be prone to the occasional disaster, but I just don't find that.   To some extent I subscribe to the theory that no golf course is natural (the fabulous and massive greens of The Old Course being among the earliest evidence) and I appreciate the manner in which Raynor/Banks drop all pretense.  

Designed in an era where few players could master the long and high carry, their architecture forces the players to truly measure his capabilities or otherwise incur a healthy penalty.   That's straight out of CB's writings (I'll follow up later with his quotes on the subject from an American Golfer article I read this weekend).   As a pathetic low ball hitter, their architecture confronts me in a way that other styles don't.  I'm forced to think twice and had the double pleasure of watching two older playing companions at Forsgate negotiate their way skillfully around bunkers they absolutely could not otherwise escape from.  

Perhaps I appreciate a built-in excuse for three putting, but their internal green contours are simply a blast to play, regardless of how many strokes it take the player to arrive.  Banks' use of what I'll call "mole lines" is particularly fascinating but somehow always seems to make sense in their placement.  

Bottom line is I found that both courses at one point or another gave equal weight to the tee ball, approach, pitching and putting.  I can't think of a better compliment.

One last (barely) tangential thought:  Given 20 rounds, I'd split them equally among Forsgate, Wild Horse, LuLu and Grandfather Mountain, just to name four very good yet different designs I've had the pleasure to enjoy.

Bogey

[George Pazin]

Thanks for that post, Mike, it is terrific.

I had the great fortune of attending MucciFeat last fall.  To take advantage of largely fixed travel costs I wanted to play a couple of other courses.  As a huge Ross fan I was fortunate to play Plainfield.  Beyond that I really wanted to see more work of Banks or Raynor having had my appetite whetted locally by Lookout Mountain and Black Creek as well as Milwaukee's Blue Mound.  I chose Forsgate and Knoll West. - arguably a couple of B listers in that otherworldly region.   While I too like the lay-of-the-land stylings of the post-modernists and old dead guys, my archtectural world was absolutely rocked by those two courses, neither of which will sniff a top whatever list.   I can't fathom having missed either.  The thrill of discovery and epiphany drives my architectural wunderlust.  There is a surprising amount of architectural brilliance out there on the less celebrated golf courses - it's often just mixed in among some pedestrian or watered-down stuff as well.

Mike

Where I differ from many is not in seeking out the Forsgates and Knolls of the world, it's in the foregoing of the Trump NY, TPC Jasna Polona or whatever it's called, etc. I'm ok if I miss something.

[Dave McCollum]

Kalen,

Of course you're right.  Brain fart from me.  I'm in Idaho.  We just drive to Montana rather than bothering with our goofy regional air options.  Same with places like Bandon.  You don't save much time by flying to SLC, then to SFO or PDX and on to North Bend.  We break up these long western trecks by playing golf along the way in Bend or whatever.  If we can find something interesting, great.  If not, I'll play anything available.  There's a course in Ely, NV?  OK, let's play it on our way to Vegas, Mesquite, or St. George.  I'd certainly want to play Gozzer if driving by.  Black Rock and Circling Raven too.  No so sure about the others.  Like others here, I'll seek out designs from guys I've enjoyed in the past, Fazio included.  Also courses raved about here.  However, I'm not a real collector or connoisseur.  Just a golf bum--I'll play any old dog track in the right company.  I enjoy figuring out what I like or dislike about a course and it often is as educational playing a dog as a gem.  

[Michael Dugger]

I suspect if Tom Fazio or Jack Nicklaus were a part of this DG...

if perhaps more of their courses where available for GCAers to play.

There would be more discussion and "praise" of their (good) work.

[Jud_T]

I honestly don't think Doak gets a pass because he participates.  Yes it's good PR for his firm, but his courses generally get high marks because they're well done and fun for all.  Certainly many here, myself included, don't seek out his work just because he contributes to the DG and we occasionally rub shoulders. I think if he actually produced a stinker that he'd get just as much flak here as anyone else, if not more...

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,

Of course you're right.  Brain fart from me.  I'm in Idaho.  We just drive to Montana rather than bothering with our goofy regional air options.  Same with places like Bandon.  You don't save much time by flying to SLC, then to SFO or PDX and on to North Bend.  We break up these long western trecks by playing golf along the way in Bend or whatever.  If we can find something interesting, great.  If not, I'll play anything available.  There's a course in Ely, NV?  OK, let's play it on our way to Vegas, Mesquite, or St. George.  I'd certainly want to play Gozzer if driving by.  Black Rock and Circling Raven too.  No so sure about the others.  Like others here, I'll seek out designs from guys I've enjoyed in the past, Fazio included.  Also courses raved about here.  However, I'm not a real collector or connoisseur.  Just a golf bum--I'll play any old dog track in the right company.  I enjoy figuring out what I like or dislike about a course and it often is as educational playing a dog as a gem.  

Dave,

Good stuff indeed.  Out west where everything is so spread out, one can't be too picky where they play....especially when driving thru Nevada on Highway 80!   

As for other Spokane offerings, Black Rock and Circling Raven are good, but they certainly aren't in Gozzers league...so I can see why some might skip those on a trip to the area.  The two must plays when in Spokane are Gozzer and making the 2.5 hr drive to Walla walla to play Wine Valley.  Everything else depends on how much time one has after that.

As for me living in Spokane, I'm glad to be able to play classic old courses like Indian Canyon for less than $30...its an absolute steal!

[George Pazin]

How would one know if Black Rock is not in Gozzer's class without playing it? Are we to take your word for it?

Slippery slopes...before you know it, you'll slide all the way down to me.

[Steve Kline]

One analogy that comes to my mind is books. I love to read about economics. I certainly don't know everything about the subject but I have much better than a basic understanding. There are lots of books on my reading list, but they all have to do with Austrian economics. Should I read some Keynes or Friedman or someone else to be more well rounded? Perhaps, but I know I find their theories incorrect based on what I have already learned about economics. That doesn't mean I haven't or won't read an atricle or essay by them that someone sends to me. But, it is going to be a really rare occasion that I do.

Similarly, I don't know much about golf course architecture, but I know what I like - Doak, C&C, and courses like Wolf Point and Kingsley that I've seen pictures of. I will go out of my to play those - as I did last year to play Ballyneal. But, courses by other architects I'll play if they are close to home or convenient, much like I will read something short by Keynes or Friedman.

[John Kavanaugh]

I honestly don't think Doak gets a pass because he participates.  Yes it's good PR for his firm, but his courses generally get high marks because they're well done and fun for all.  Certainly many here, myself included, don't seek out his work just because he contributes to the DG and we occasionally rub shoulders. I think if he actually produced a stinker that he'd get just as much flak here as anyone else, if not more...

Doak gets a pass because he is clever and can take a joke.  He is also a blast to spend a day around.  I don't see me hanging with Fazio, Nicklaus, Hills, Jones, Crenshaw, Norman or Richardson.  Through no fault of theirs.  Doak is an internet geek who can really, really putt.

[Kalen Braley]

How would one know if Black Rock is not in Gozzer's class without playing it? Are we to take your word for it?

Slippery slopes...before you know it, you'll slide all the way down to me.

Amen George,

By all means don't take my word for it....I do encourage any and all to play there.  How I rank them is certainly my opinion only! 

[Andy Troeger]

Up until April, I had never been to Palmetto.  But through reseach (talking to people, reading reviews, pictures), I knew almost exactly what I was in for when I visited.  It's rare that I am surprised one standard deviation away from what my idea of a place is going in.  That's what so good about the truly great places.  I've researched them to death, and they STILL exceed what I was expecting.

I don't like this approach personally--it makes it sound like you've already made up your mind before the visit and just use the actual round to confirm what you already know. I do my own research, but I think at least a little mystery makes the round more special.

[Andy Troeger]

Ben,

Well said.  I'd never heard of Kingsley until I started lurking here, or Spring Valley, Big Fish, Highlands of Elgin, Belvedere etc., etc..  I've also avoided a number of courses that shall remain nameless as I can tell from talking to folks that, although exclusive or buzz courses, they probably aren't my cup of tea.  Using a Bayesian function of expected value (or love of GCA) will maximize utility of time, money and fun.

Jud,
How do you know that the courses you listed and enjoyed were more enjoyable to you than the ones you missed? Why are you so confident? You seemed very confident that you wouldn't bother going to Gozzer Ranch unless in the area, and its better than Kingsley, so I'm not especially convinced 


(By the way, Kingsley is awesome, but I do like Gozzer a bit better).

[Andy Troeger]

George,
By the way, no issues here on the way you prefer to see courses. You tend to comment on what you've seen and what you've known without trying to be an expert on the things you haven't seen. Instead of doing that, you ask questions!

Part of my angst comes from people that have seen two-three courses by a given architect that has built hundreds of different courses and then will post as if they are an expert on that person's work WITHOUT mentioning the caveat that they've played two-three of them.

[Jud_T]

Andy,

I'm not that confident, but rather have to set up my own expected value function.  As I haven't played any Fazio courses that have blown me away, and granted I've only played a few of his higher rated courses, I would expect to enjoy Gozzer but not have my Fazio worldview dramatically changed.  Perhaps I'm wrong and the course would blow me away and I'd then have to change my expectations function going forward.  And perhaps I'm missing things by my current biases, but I have to go with the most likely profitable bets given my current set of information.  

Aside from a very good piece of property, what did the Fazio team do differently in process at Gozzer than any of their other courses?  How much time did the master his ownself spend on the property?  Were the greens crafted by hand on site or by CAD drawings from HQ?  Who were the shapers responsible for this breakthrough?  Aside from fairness, why do you like it better than Kingsley?

P.S.  I agree with Ben's statement.  I had been reading and hearing about Ballyneal for several years, yet when I finally got out there last week, the course exceeded my already lofty expectations...

[Andy Troeger]

Jud,
Thanks for the response. I don't consider it a "breakthrough" in the sense that he's done very good work elsewhere. Its probably the best property I've seen that he's worked on, with good movement and amazing views of the lake. The design things I noticed were a couple center-line bunkers on par fives that forced decisions off the tee to create options to reach the green in two. Another short par four had a centerline tree/rock hazard that was very well done and created interest. Other holes are a bit more traditional, but taken together they create great variety. I actually like it for many of the same reasons I like Kingsley--interesting features, greens, etc. If I had to pinpoint a difference its that a few of Kingsley's greens are just a tad too severe, especially certain pins on #2 and #9. But in reality I list them about the same, with Gozzer a few spots ahead.

No clue who did what--I don't really think about that kind of stuff. I'm a finished product guy.

[Ben Sims]

Up until April, I had never been to Palmetto.  But through reseach (talking to people, reading reviews, pictures), I knew almost exactly what I was in for when I visited.  It's rare that I am surprised one standard deviation away from what my idea of a place is going in.  That's what so good about the truly great places.  I've researched them to death, and they STILL exceed what I was expecting.

I don't like this approach personally--it makes it sound like you've already made up your mind before the visit and just use the actual round to confirm what you already know. I do my own research, but I think at least a little mystery makes the round more special.

Mystery is one thing, ignorance is another.  I don't have the time or money to be ignorant of where I play. 

Also, on your comment about one course of a certain architect vs. another.  If a chef has made his reputation making hamburgers for years and years, and I am not a fan of his burgers, then why would I subject myself to another one?  Worse, he branches out and makes tacos, why would his tacos be better than the guy that's made a career of making great tacos.  He's a burger guy, not at taco guy.

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