Golf Digest Ballot Stuffing Contest

[Sam Morrow]

Sam,

It was definitely a function of both time and money.  My friend and I drove from Washington to San Fran on a last minute trip to see Roger Waters.  We only had time and money for one round and one round only.  At the time, Old Mac hadn't even been dreamed up yet and I believe Bandon Trails was either only recently opened, or still growing in, so I knew little about it.

I had read before hand that while everyone really liked Bandon Dunes, they were raving over Pacific Dunes, so we played that one and we're not disappointed.  At that point in time, it was easily the best course either my buddy or I had ever played.

Thanks Kalen but I think I'd take Bandon over Roger Waters, that's just me.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

I guess this answers the question of what Matt Ward has been up to since he quit this website!

I just realized that I haven't seen a Matt Ward post in the longest.  I missed his departure post.  Did he say adios and why he no longer posts?

[Mike Cirba]

Lynn,

One day he was here, the next, presto...he was a "Guest".   Go figure.  

This place is getting like Oz more and more all the time...the Emerald City, not the prison, although I'm sure some could draw parallels there as well.  

In Dorothy's immortal words, "people seem to come and go so quickly around here".

In any case, Bulle Rock beating Pebble Beach to get in the Final Four is more unlikely than and Orioles World Series victory this year.   But, I guess it sells magazines.

[John Kavanaugh]

In any case, Bulle Rock beating Pebble Beach to get in the Final Four is more unlikely than and Orioles World Series victory this year.   But, I guess it sells magazines.

Please hit the link above and see the actual results.  Bulle Rock did not beat Pebble.  True North beat Pebble.

I honestly do not see any matches that out of whack with the reality of the true public golfer.  One of the things we always love to pat ourselves on the back over is how we reveal new courses to play on our rating threads.  I have to say, I see a few courses doing well in this competition that I was not aware of before.  Seems like fun and doesn't sell a single magazine.

Please someone, point out a match that can not be defended.

[Jim Colton]

How about True North over Pebble?

[John Kavanaugh]

How about True North over Pebble?

True North beat Pebble 432 to 379.  I had never heard of True North so I went to their web site and learned that it is a nice affordable golf course by Jim Engh.  Here are the rates: http://www.truenorthgolf.com/golf-course/golf-rates

I am more likely to play True North than Pebble Beach.  While it most likely is not a better course, True North may be the better public course.  I don't think 432 votes is ballot stuffing.

[Ronald Montesano]

What are the odds that the True North victory over Pebble was a case of the True North marketing machine contacting "friends" and saying "vote for us in this GD Facebook thing" rather than the golfing public, of its own volition, saying "hey, I'll vote for that course in northern Michigan over the one that I see on television every February and once a decade in June" ?

How about 101% to -1%?

I agree, Jimmy Boy, we can't defend TN over PB.

ADDENDUM: having seen the vote tally, it may be a case that neither course cared and one actually won out over the other, so shut me up! While we may not agree, it's more palatable than one of those 40000-vote getter results.

[John Kavanaugh]

What are the odds that the True North victory over Pebble was a case of the True North marketing machine contacting "friends" and saying "vote for us in this GD Facebook thing" rather than the golfing public, of its own volition, saying "hey, I'll vote for that course in northern Michigan over the one that I see on television every February and once a decade in June" ?

How about 101% to -1%?

I agree, Jimmy Boy, we can't defend TN over PB.

ADDENDUM: having seen the vote tally, it may be a case that neither course cared and one actually won out over the other, so shut me up! While we may not agree, it's more palatable than one of those 40000-vote getter results.

Ronald,

Thanks for the addendum.  I'm never sure how to handle adjusting a post after the red troll says I missed a comment that changes my opinion.

I have spent a few minutes studying this contest and doubt nefarious forces are at work.  Sure Wolf Point gets 40,000 some votes but the John Madden experience gets 20,000.  If you follow the journey of each course from round one you will find it difficult to see a pattern of stuffing when it appears to be more of interesting matches driving votes for both courses.

Here is a tid bit from me that is topical with another thread.  Bandon Dunes is my favorite course at the resort.  As hard as it may seem to believe, I am far from alone in that opinion.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I simply cannot resist the temptation to be politically incorrect following my recent blackballing from said club...
but..one wonders how much it costs to come staright into Golf Digest's top 100 at number 14

[Eric Smith]

Jason's thread title is perfect as the real story here is in fact ballot stuffing. No one has mentioned that a user can vote in a single contest as many times as they feel like. Vote-refresh-vote again. Users can even throw the other course a crumb and vote for them after voting 10 times for their favorite.

[John Kavanaugh]

Jason's thread title is perfect as the real story here is in fact ballot stuffing. No one has mentioned that a user can vote in a single contest as many times as they feel like. Vote-refresh-vote again. Users can even throw the other course a crumb and vote for them after voting 10 times for their favorite.

Show me one example.

[Eric Smith]

I can't show you an example. Just go to the site and try it yourself.

[John Kavanaugh]

I can't show you an example. Just go to the site and try it yourself.

I mean an example of ballot stuffing.  I can not find one.  The link: http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/100-greatest-golf-courses/fans_choices

[Jim Colton]

Then how do some match-ups have <2000 votes and match-ups in the same round (I think they were doing them two at a time, but I haven't been paying attention) have over 40,000? Obtuse or contrarian for contrarian's sake?

[Kalen Braley]

Then how do some match-ups have <2000 votes and match-ups in the same round (I think they were doing them two at a time, but I haven't been paying attention) have over 40,000? Obtuse or contrarian for contrarian's sake?

Its both Jim...never good enough for J/K to just be one of them.

[John Kavanaugh]

The worst beating I see is Bulle Rock beating Spyglass Hill.  I have not played either course but Bulle Rock is a Pete Dye and does anybody play Spyglass that really wants to be there?  It only seems to be a place to go on a Pebble Beach package.  It looks to me like Bulle Rock has a solid local base of golfers who love the course.  Nobody loves Spyglass.

I don't think you can call it ballot stuffing if you love a course enough to vote more than once.  I see that no worse than in the Colton poll where every person who ever played Wolf Nuzzo voted.  It is loyalty.

[John Kavanaugh]

Then how do some match-ups have <2000 votes and match-ups in the same round (I think they were doing them two at a time, but I haven't been paying attention) have over 40,000? Obtuse or contrarian for contrarian's sake?

Yes Jim but the Classic at Madden's went from 485 to over 20000 votes in a losing cause.  Do you really believe the forces that are voting for Wolf Point are also voting for Madden's.  If they were really that sinister wouldn't they craft a victory that is not such an obvious outlier.  Something like 5000 to 4000.  Do you think they conspired with Madden's to drive both vote totals up to make us think both courses are popular?  Isn't it possible that people who like the courses were having a little fun competing against each other which resulted in the same outcome.  God forbid someone else waste time on the internet arguing about courses besides us.

[Jim Colton]

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Wolf-Creek-Golf-Club-Mesquite-NV/125209116504?sk=wall

[Sven Nilsen]

John:

I'm not sure if I see your point here.  Are you saying that WC/Classic combo received such a disproportionate amount of the total votes made in the round of 16 because it is a compelling matchup?  Look at the other seven matchups in that round and tell me how that matchup is any kind of multiple of interest more compelling.  Come on man, you're better and smarter than that.  

Here's a quote from Wolf Creek's FB page (posted by the club with a link to the voting page):

"Here we go again!!!...just got word today the Elite 8 voting has begun. We are trailing The Ocean course at Kiawah Island. Need your votes NOW...lets go Team Wolf Creek!!! Thanks again for your support."

The only FB action I could find on Bandon's page is the following (not posted by the resort, with no link to the voting page):

"The Wolf Creek folks have come in a messed with the voting. Bandon Dunes was way ahead and now trails by 400+ votes. Help get Bandon into the Sweet 16 where it belongs!"

Compelling matchups my a$$.

[John Kavanaugh]

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Wolf-Creek-Golf-Club-Mesquite-NV/125209116504?sk=wall

So?  How did Madden get over 20000 votes?  Which course did Wolf Point beat that you feel it should not have.  People use the internet to promote their courses.  At least I, a non Facebook member, can read that link. For some reason I can not vote without registering.  Personally, this is more about the Facebook crowd.  I'm starting to get a kick out of seeing what you Facebook people like, it's like asking my daughter where to play.

[John Kavanaugh]

Oops I guess this is Wolf Creek.  I will go with Wolf Ward and Wolf Nuzzo from now on.

I do agree that I would have voted Bandon Dunes over Wolf Ward without ever having seen the Wolf.  The vote tally was 1107 to 708.  If I could have just gotten my 321 twitter followers to vote for Bandon perhaps we could have changed the result if they in turn told a few friends.  Sound ridiculous yet?

It just may be so that registered Facebook users prefer playing Wolf Ward on a long weekend to Vegas as opposed to going to play in the wind and rain.  If I were younger I would too.  That is the problem with public courses, the public chooses to play them.

[Sven Nilsen]

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Wolf-Creek-Golf-Club-Mesquite-NV/125209116504?sk=wall

So?  How did Madden get over 20000 votes?  Which course did Wolf Point beat that you feel it should not have.  People use the internet to promote their courses.  At least I, a non Facebook member, can read that link. For some reason I can not vote without registering.  Personally, this is more about the Facebook crowd.  I starting to get a kick out of seeing what you Facebook people like, it's like asking my daughter where to play.

Madden got their votes the same way Wolf Creek did, by requesting its fans to vote for them on FB, Twitter, etc.

Like it or not, social media drives a lot of the marketing done these days.  This GD poll is essentially an exercise in determining who has the best social media network.  Doesn't surprise me that a Vegas based course is running away with it.  It also doesn't surprise me that the Bandon courses are doing little to no self-promotion.  

[Mark Pritchett]

This is called "campaigning".  Nothing wrong with courses working to mobilize their fans to get votes for their course(s). 

[John Kavanaugh]

Sven,

Next time you see Mike Keiser have him tell you about the time they flew a bunch of golf writers out to Bandon on the New York Knicks private plane.  It was a real hoot when a crowd gathered on the tarmac in hopes of seeing professional basketball players and a group of writers departed.  Does sound like a cool trip.  Did I say Like.

[Jeff Shelman]

In addition to getting their own people to vote, the Minnesota public courses in this -- Maddens, Giants Ridge and The Wilderness -- got big pushes on FB from the Explore Minnesota Golf Alliance FB page and on Twitter.