Why try and get rid of the Poa?

[Jon Spaulding]

Joel, LACC always had Bent greens......

Count me as a fan of Poa; it works very well along the coast in CA when given some extra care.

I agree with David that the approaches/transitions present the greatest challenge.

[Tyler Kearns]

Dave,
With all due respect what you, and most golfers can't shut up about, or deduce, is that it isn’t all about the grass. Go play John Anderson bent grass in Oregon and tell me about how it explodes on impact. Go play Dan Lucas bent in Michigan and tell me about how much it explodes on impact. Its not the grass.

Thanks Don.  Were you implying that the unfixable explosions to which I refer and which I've seen with A1-A4 (at least to date) are due to poor ground under the grass itself?  Or the interaction between the new grasses and the ground, or something else entirely?  

Shivas,

I think Don is referring to how the A1/A4 bents are managed by superintendents. We both played "Dan Lucas" bent at Kingsley a few years ago (you played in the group behind me), I think our ball marks were mere dents in the green. The explosions you have experienced in the past probably have more to do with soft conditioning due to over-watering.

TK

 

[PGertner]

Vile weed.  



Patrick Gertner
Potowomut GC
East Greenwich, RI

[Bradley Anderson]

Greg,
  Thanks for the email earlier this week with the link to the renovation progress that you are making.  Marzolf is stud and has done some really fine bunker work on some old, classic golf courses, as of late.
  I just wanted to say that reading your above post was quite refreshing in the fact that you didn’t  refer to everything about the golf course as “me,” “my” or “mine.” Ultimately, the golf course superintendent, (in most cases) doesn’t own the course. We are not typically the ones mowing, or rolling, or spraying, etc.  We’re directing it and how we think it’s best done. In so many discussions and/or articles, I’ve never understood why it’s always, “my greens, my roots or I sprayed or I’m cutting at…” Ultimately, I think that it takes away credit from the staff and Assistants that are really doing the physical work. I would be interested if any members of this site, who are members at a course, get upset if they hear their Superintendent talk like such. (Maybe most do not even notice) It’s much more the member’s golf course that it is the Superintendents.

[/quote]

Good points Anthony. We agree. 

[Chris Tritabaugh]

I don't think there is any doubt Poa can make a great putting surface but at what cost and even then its is a fickle plant. See the "Prayers for Oakmont" thread. They have virtual army taking care of their greens and a strain that has stood up to their management for years, yet they are still struggling. (Maybe, taking the thread with a grain of salt.)

I just watched a great video with Ken Mangum of Atlanta Athletic Club. Their switch to ultra-dwarf bermudagrass is well documented. Mangum says the different between the bermudagrass and his old bentgrass is one you are managing and one you are just trying to keep alive. Same with bent and Poa in the north. One grass wants to die, one has the make up to not only live but thrive. Considering this boards love of firm playing conditions the answer to this question is an easy one. You can throw the kitchen sink at Poa to keep it alive and it will still die, then it recovers is great for a couple months and the winter snow and ice come and guess what Poa is likely to do. You guessed it, DIE!

There is a proper plant for all locations and I am not quite sure Poa is that plant anywhere. I could go on for pages but I will leave it at that for now.

[Steve Pozaric]

With the hot summers we have in St. Louis, it dies much more quickly than the bents as others have pointed out.  Many of the privates are doing or have redone their greens with A1/A4, T1 or 007 varieties of bent.

[Chris Tritabaugh]

You guys are starting to change my mind....but

What, if anything, can be done about all the damn barren and disfigured pitch marks, though?  When that happens, it looks and putts horriblly and massively slows down play because -- and I've seen this happen with my own eyes -- guys who would generally smooth out about one (obvious, blatant and unsmooth) pitch mark per month wind up fixing 8 or 10 per round...

As I believe someone else pointed out, I think you are putting too much on the A1/A4. I would shy away from thinking the varieties are the sole issue. Plus, if you are in St. Louis than from June to September bentgrass greens are going to be wet. Any surface, when wet will have issues with ballmarks.

[Rory Connaughton]

Shivas

  I have not seen the exploding pitch marks that you refer to with A1/A4 though I certainly don't doubt your observations.
Is it possible that what you see relates to the fact that A1/A4 greens require aggressive cultural practices for some time after grow in.
lots of top dressing, gradening etc.?  I can see how the use of a sand graden at half an inch could impact the tightness of the turf. It strikes me that once a "healthy" light thatch layer develops this issue could go away?

Is this one of the reasons some clubs are using A1/A4 blended with Alpha? My understanding is that it is a denser variety.
My understanding is that this was done at Weyhill.  Is anyone able to report on the results?

[GBoring]

Thanks Tony,

I booked my airline ticket today for September.  Not sure about Miami beating OSU though.  Your a MSU fan.  Why all the hostility toward OSU.  You should support your conference.  The project is going well.  The chipping areas around the greens are unbelievable.  Travis's original plan had chipping areas everywhere.  That is what we are restoring.  The look is similar to what you see in Australia.  Several bentgrass edges are being mowed right into the bunkers.  The construction company is a little ahead of schedule.  Hopefully that continues.  Winter can come very early in NE PA. 

[Craig Sweet]

I'm sorry, but I don't care what grass you use, eventually you will have Poa in the mix.  Give these new courses with the A-1 Bent's etc. etc. 15-20 years...maybe less...and they will see some Poa.

We have totally stopped fighting the Poa and now we embrace it fully...our course has not looked this good in a decade!

[Chris Johnston]

Wy try to get rid of the Poa?  100# Poa is fine as a surface.  A mix of the two is problematic due to heat and I believe growth consistency.  Most here play 36-54 holes a day as a blend of the two would seem bumpy in the afternoon.  Plus, the fert and water requirements are different for each.  Thus, we remove Poa on greens at every early sign to keep things pure.

We have found the he A1/A4 requires lots of love but delivers a terrific surface. 

[Randy Thompson]

I'm sorry, but I don't care what grass you use, eventually you will have Poa in the mix.  Give these new courses with the A-1 Bent's etc. etc. 15-20 years...maybe less...and they will see some Poa.

We have totally stopped fighting the Poa and now we embrace it fully...our course has not looked this good in a decade!

They will see some poa correct and good superintendents will keep it out and never allow thte percentage to get more than 10 percent, just a matter of staying on top of it and making a priority of it and researching the correct solutions but they are there, the technology exisit.

[Randy Thompson]

Wy try to get rid of the Poa?  100# Poa is fine as a surface.  A mix of the two is problematic due to heat and I believe growth consistency.  Most here play 36-54 holes a day as a blend of the two would seem bumpy in the afternoon.  Plus, the fert and water requirements are different for each.  Thus, we remove Poa on greens at every early sign to keep things pure.

We have found the he A1/A4 requires lots of love but delivers a terrific surface. 

Chris
If you have a terrific surface through a lot of love, try abusing the surfaces like the developers recomended from day one and watch how they become freaking incredible. The more you abuse them the better they will get, if you don´t beleive me contact tee to green and ask them.