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Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Mackenzie and California Club
« on: July 30, 2011, 02:24:20 PM »
I have heard that there may be a connection between Mackenzie and the California Club course, but I don't think it is normally regarded as a Mackenzie course.  Anyone know the truth/facts around this?

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie and California Club
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2011, 02:34:31 PM »
Dr Mackenzie apparently did a bunch of bunker and greens work to the Macan course when he was in California.  Most of it was remodeled out of existence over the years. 

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie and California Club
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2011, 03:10:14 PM »
I've always been unclear if Macan was still alive and how Mac got involved?  It's pretty clear Mackenzie did extensive work which really makes the course.

Kirk Moon


Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie and California Club
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2011, 04:33:32 PM »
I've always been unclear if Macan was still alive and how Mac got involved?  It's pretty clear Mackenzie did extensive work which really makes the course.

Macan died in the mid-'60's but no more California after the '20's I think. 

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie and California Club
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2011, 05:51:19 PM »
"Macan died in the mid-'60's but no more California after the '20's I think."

Bill McBride -

Are you saying that Macan did not work anywhere in California after the 1920's or just at the Cal Club?

Didn't Macan design San Geronimo in Marin County in the 1950's/60's? That would have brought him to the SF Bay Area for sure.

"It's pretty clear Mackenzie did extensive work which really makes the course."

Joel Stewart -

What "extensive work" are you referring to? Has any of it survived the recent remodel of the course?

DT
« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 06:08:17 PM by David_Tepper »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie and California Club
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2011, 12:07:03 AM »
David, I forgot about San Geronimo, which was done late in Macan's life.  I wonder how they got him down there that late in life. 

I played SG a few times in the '70's.  Never cared that much for it because the drainage was terrible and the course mucky when I played it. 

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie and California Club
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2011, 12:17:24 AM »
Bill -

A lot of work has been done on the drainage at San G. over the years and it has improved. But, like a lot of NorCal courses, it can play a little heavy in the winter.

DT

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie and California Club
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2011, 07:23:42 AM »
Bill -

A lot of work has been done on the drainage at San G. over the years and it has improved. But, like a lot of NorCal courses, it can play a little heavy in the winter.

DT

Before that work it played a LOT heavy.  I played twice I think and gave up.  Too bad, it's in a lovely setting. 

Alex Lagowitz

Re: Mackenzie and California Club
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2011, 12:17:36 PM »
"Macan died in the mid-'60's but no more California after the '20's I think."

Bill McBride -

Are you saying that Macan did not work anywhere in California after the 1920's or just at the Cal Club?

Didn't Macan design San Geronimo in Marin County in the 1950's/60's? That would have brought him to the SF Bay Area for sure.

"It's pretty clear Mackenzie did extensive work which really makes the course."

Joel Stewart -

What "extensive work" are you referring to? Has any of it survived the recent remodel of the course?

DT

From the Courses by Country of the Cal Club...

"His assignment at the California Golf Club was to redesign all the bunkering and rebuild at least two of the greens (the tenth and eighteenth). However, to be perfectly clear, he did not change any of the playing corridors and the photographs prior to his arrival show the course was already a very good one."

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie and California Club
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2011, 12:45:47 PM »
"Macan died in the mid-'60's but no more California after the '20's I think."

Bill McBride -

Are you saying that Macan did not work anywhere in California after the 1920's or just at the Cal Club?

Didn't Macan design San Geronimo in Marin County in the 1950's/60's? That would have brought him to the SF Bay Area for sure.

"It's pretty clear Mackenzie did extensive work which really makes the course."

Joel Stewart -

What "extensive work" are you referring to? Has any of it survived the recent remodel of the course?

DT

From the Courses by Country of the Cal Club...

"His assignment at the California Golf Club was to redesign all the bunkering and rebuild at least two of the greens (the tenth and eighteenth). However, to be perfectly clear, he did not change any of the playing corridors and the photographs prior to his arrival show the course was already a very good one."

That to me is extensive.

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie and California Club
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2011, 01:05:15 PM »
San Geronimo "Quick Facts" from its website:

18 Holes, 72 Par

Designer
A. Vernon McKahn

Renovated by
Robert Muir Graves

Year Opened
1967

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie and California Club
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2011, 06:31:28 PM »
Alex L. & Joel S. -

I don't doubt that Dr. Mackenzie did "extensive" work at the Cal Club once upon a time. My question was/is how much of it survived Kyle Phillips' highly-regarded renovation of the course just a few years ago. Didn't Phillips pretty much redo all the bunkers there?

DT

Ben Voelker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie and California Club
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2011, 06:50:03 PM »
Alex L. & Joel S. -

I don't doubt that Dr. Mackenzie did "extensive" work at the Cal Club once upon a time. My question was/is how much of it survived Kyle Phillips' highly-regarded renovation of the course just a few years ago. Didn't Phillips pretty much redo all the bunkers there?

DT

My understanding is that Phillips intent was to restore 13 holes to their state after MacKenzie's work in the 1930s.  Land lost to the widening of one of the surrounding arterial streets meant some holes could not be restored to the originals.  Therefore, all but the current 2,3,4,7 and 8 are "original" holes (after Mackenzie's work).  The remaining 5 are Phillips original holes that are intended to blend with the style of the rest of the course.

I have a yardage book with a relatively extensive history of the club which I will copy across a few paragraphs from when I have a chance.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie and California Club
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2011, 08:06:48 PM »
Alex L. & Joel S. -

I don't doubt that Dr. Mackenzie did "extensive" work at the Cal Club once upon a time. My question was/is how much of it survived Kyle Phillips' highly-regarded renovation of the course just a few years ago. Didn't Phillips pretty much redo all the bunkers there?

DT

David, I was impressed with how well Kyle was able to make some of the transitions, feel like Mackenzie had done them himself. I don't recall the hole # but, at some point during the round, it felt like one of the transition points at CPC.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Cory Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie and California Club
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2011, 08:40:00 PM »
Designer
A. Vernon McKahn


That's embarrassing :(

Sadly I know there are few other Macan designed clubs out there who have failed to take the time to spell his name properly on their websites.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie and California Club
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2011, 08:54:55 PM »
Adam C. -

I seem to be having a hard time making myself clear. ;)

I have played the Cal Club twice, once 25+ years ago and once last summer. Clearly, it is a much different course now than it was circa 1986. There are at least 2 holes now that did not exist then.

My question is, did Kyle Phillips renovate the course "in the style of" Mackenzie or did he restore/recreate the course (routing, placement/shape of bunkers, size/contours of greens, etc.) using old plans, photos, etc.?

My impression (and please correct me if I am mistaken) is that the work Phillips did is very much the former than the latter. If that is the case, does any of Mackenzie's original work still exist there?

DT



     

Ben Voelker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie and California Club
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2011, 09:18:34 PM »
Adam C. -

I seem to be having a hard time making myself clear. ;)

I have played the Cal Club twice, once 25+ years ago and once last summer. Clearly, it is a much different course now than it was circa 1986. There are at least 2 holes now that did not exist then.

My question is, did Kyle Phillips renovate the course "in the style of" Mackenzie or did he restore/recreate the course (routing, placement/shape of bunkers, size/contours of greens, etc.) using old plans, photos, etc.?

My impression (and please correct me if I am mistaken) is that the work Phillips did is very much the former than the latter. If that is the case, does any of Mackenzie's original work still exist there?

DT



     

David,

The course was restored based on aerial photograph largely.  The course had to be redesigned by RTJ in the 1960s or 1970s due to the loss of land to Westborough Blvd expansion.  There was a Spyglass Hill style par 3 as #3 that I know was one of the replacement holes.

The back 9 today is very close to the post-Mackenzie changes from the 1930s.  Even on the front, holes 1, 5 (6 pre 2007), 6 (7 pre 2007) and 9 are restored Mackenzie holes.  The renovation of all of these holes used old aerial photos to replicate Mackenzie bunkering.

From the Club History in the yardage book,

"The opening 5 holes of the original course were severely impacted by an eminent domain procedure in 1966 associated with the construction of the 280 freeway and the current Westborough Blvd, which now forms the boundary of the club.  Alterations were made to the opening five holes by the firm of Robert Trent Jones, Sr. and the course played to that configuration, save the 1991 addition of two lakes on holes 11 and 18, until 2007.  In 2006 the club retained Kyle Phillips to draw a master plan which would restore the course to its original intent save accommodations to the modern game.

Phillips' initial impression was that the original scale of the front nine had been compromised by land lost to Westborough Blvd., but that, fortunately, the club had approximately 18 acres vacant in the middle of the property suitable for expansion.  His routing plan proposed to restore 13 holes in close adherence to photographs from the 1930's, while creating 5 new holes consistent with the scale of the original classic golden age design.  Making use of the previously unused 18 acres, where he created hole #7, Phillips' opening four holes occupy the same acreage that previously held five holes and a driving range.  The course closed in April 2007 and reopened for member play in July 2008, concurrent with the club's 90th Anniversary."

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie and California Club
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2011, 09:35:55 PM »
Ben V. -

Thanks very much for your post. As I read it, it appears that Kyle Phillips' work was, in fact, a combination of a restoration of the majority of holes and a recreation "in the style of" Mackenzie for the balance.

Out of curiosity, did Mackenzie ever design a "boomerang" par-4 similar to the new hole on the front-9 (#7, I think) at the Cal Club?   

DT     

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie and California Club
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2011, 09:55:09 PM »

Out of curiosity, did Mackenzie ever design a "boomerang" par-4 similar to the new hole on the front-9 (#7, I think) at the Cal Club?   

DT     

David, if you mean a boomerang green, the original 18th at Augusta would certainly have been one.  Today's ninth, there's no longer a center bunker with wings. 

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie and California Club
« Reply #20 on: July 31, 2011, 10:16:08 PM »
Bill M. -

No, I am not referring to a boomerang green.

The new hole at the Cal Club (#7, I think) is a downhill, par-4 that arcs/curves well to the right.

DT

Keith Doleshel

Re: Mackenzie and California Club
« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2011, 02:39:26 AM »
Designer
A. Vernon McKahn

Renovated by
Robert Muir Graves


A renovation by Robert Muir Graves...?  Proof that any originality of a golf course is sure to have disappeared.

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