So you'd like to bring back Lido... are you sure?

[Joe Bausch]

Grantland Rice was an accomplished amateur golfer, so he probably knew what a tough golf course was.

This from the November 4, 1917 edition of the NY Tribune.

[Adam Clayman]

Fascinating find, sleuth. Narrow fairways and long vegetation, sounds like the Pga and the USGA. No room for error? Was the manner of construction of this course a reason for this? I'd have to guess, yes.

[Tom_Doak]

It was a tight piece of property ... the course was only on 125 acres or so, and they put strips of rough to try and enforce what little separation they had.  But, Rice's opinion here is just the same as the panelist guy two weeks ago who played Awarii Dunes with the rough at grow-in stage and pronounced it unfit for human consumption.

[Peter Pallotta]

Adam - given that the course was designed by Charles Blair "Scotland's Gift" Macdonald, way back in the 1910s, it would seem that the 'game mind of man' is indeed a powerful, deep-seated and perhaps even eternal and inexorable force.  The ego, as you once called it, the temptation/desire to best others in and through our creations, seems to reside deep in the human heart -- even for those who have long experienced and appreciated the fresh clean flowing waters of The Old Course. Perhaps the Spirit of St Andrews is just that -- an ineffable Ideal that some have always wanted to reach for but few have ever truly grasped.  Perhaps it is like the grail, the symbol for what we continually seek but never find; and so perhaps it is the striving itself that is most important. But maybe I'm making too much of this.  

Peter

[Joe Bentham]

wasn't Macdonald notorious for saying one thing about building golf holes and doing another? 

[John Shimony]

Very interesting, Joe.  Just yesterday I was taken up in a conversation with an assistant club pro about difficulty, enjoyment, and membership.  He is of the opinion that a particularly difficult course makes play more interesting, with narrowness and rough being the means of torture he prefers.  I countered by arguing in favor of width and forgiveness in deference to the average golfer, to which he found a need to question my manhood.  Real men want to be associated with difficult golf courses.

[Mac Plumart]

To be  honest, I am intrigued by The Lido...but it seems to fly directly in the face of natural minamlism.  Could it have been the beginning of golf going in the wrong direction?  That is  building a golf course on land unfit for the purpose and spending go-zillions of dollars on it to make it work? 

Just a thought/question...not making a definitive statement.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mac,
Lido was way too early to fit your premise, you need to look post WW2 for that answer.

p.s. Lido for scoring may have been torture, but Lido for match play sounds like it would have been perfect.

[Tim Martin]

It seems an absolute shame that it`s gone and yes I would like to bring it back. Not unlike other Macdonald projects it was ahead of it`s time and a colossus of sorts.

[RSLivingston_III]

I would like to see it brought back.The article discusses the requirement of controlling the ball, something I feel has been flushed down the toilet over the last couple decades by the advancement of the bomb and gouge mentality.

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

Joe,

To me this article rings a bit sensationalist, too many superlatives!

Yet, where are our usual suspects to argue the fine points. Just because there is no physical evidence other than old photos and newspaper records doesn't mean we can't have a battle royale here on GCA.

C'mon boys, how did MacDonald espy that perfect piece of links land on Long Island? We have been digesting the acrimony over Crump's rail journey and discovery of the land for PVGC, or perhaps not, on another thread??

Where is the crossing of swords?? I can't believe that "Lido" isn't fertile ground for controversy.



 

[Ronald Montesano]

PP,
I though Al Mac was "spirit of St. Andrews" in deed, whereas Chuck Mac was a bit broader...discuss/contradict->

[Peter Pallotta]

RM - ah, geez, what a maroon - I was so busy trying to make my point that I messed it up entirely. BUT, thanks to you I will go back now and put in "Scotland's Gift" and, bob's your uncle, my point still stands...perhaps even better than ever!! (No, not really, but....)

Peter

[Brad Klein]

John Shimony,

not "real men," that's just one version of what it means to be a real person. There are others, more forgiving, more thoughtful and more sympathetic and indulgent of human suffering.

[John Shimony]

Mr. Klein,
How many of these well rounded and thoughtful men are in positions of influence at American clubs and courses?  In the few years that I have been taken up with the study of course architecture it seems to me that the likes of us here at the Golf Club Atlas discussion board are an extreme minority.  A minority that is growing, I believe, because to writers like yourself, and others such as Mr. Morrissett, but still an extreme minority.  Would you say that this movement is gaining more adherents?  I have been noticing more architecture discussion during golf telecasts but my dealings with Joe Six pack are tempering my optimism.  But I guess the taste makers must take up the torch before the masses.

[Mike Cirba]

It sounds as though the property wasn't large enough or the fairways wide enough for the type of windy conditions that were/are the norm at that site.   The thick vegetation between fairways sounds decidedly penal.

[John Shimony]

I believe the Lido course was part a resort or at least a hotel, correct?  Or the hotel followed the course?  Did they perhaps view their clientele as being those men of leisure who sought challenges by hunting is South Jersey.  It would be interesting to see the Lido's marketing material and whether or not it sold itself as a challenging layout or as a nice leisurely day at the beach.

[Craig Disher]

It sounds as though the property wasn't large enough or the fairways wide enough for the type of windy conditions that were/are the norm at that site.   The thick vegetation between fairways sounds decidedly penal.

In the GI article, Peter Lees said that the fairways would be between 40 and 65 yards wide - photos confirm that they were.  But the result was that some tee shots were played almost directly over other tees or greens.

[Mike Cirba]

Craig,

Interesting, thanks.

It sounds perhaps that the vegetative growth for an off-line shot was possibly too punitive.   Perhaps that was later rectified or thinned out, but from Rice's description it sounds quite brutal.

In any case, I've played on the other "Lido" out there and the site is amazingly windy.   

[Craig Disher]

It might have been thinned out. The photo of the 17th hole in Golden Age on p. 39 shows plenty of fairway space and not a lot of heavy rough - quite different from the photos taken during construction.

[Mike Cirba]

Craig,

In that regard, it may have been like Bayonne Golf Club.

Although width was built into the design, the high fescues off the fairway make finding the ball very difficult, much less playable.   It would be nice to see them get that under control.

[Adam Clayman]

It is interesting to speculate on this subject. With all the responses, I can see truth is likely a combination of all of them.

In the end, I suppose it was a good idea for Mike Keiser NOT to re-build Lido, as Gib suggested, and build the inspired Old mac.

On the subject of Joe Six Pack and how they treat their egos, I've found a few people who have figured it out all on their own. they may not be able to articulate, or recognize the cause for the dislike for poor architecture, but once someone discusses it with them, they quickly realize why it was they just didn't have any fun, or why they dislike a course so much.

It doesn't take much to get some people thinking. Others, the dictionary might not have enough words for them to understand golf is not about them.

[Jim_Kennedy]

How bad could the rough areas be if the writer never mentioned losing balls, just that extricating one from the "...sand, hummocks and matted whiskers"  was a chore?

[JNC Lyon]

"Lido, a golf course built out of the sea and sand, is the most rugged test of them all."

Despite the course's difficulty, this description sounds pretty much ideal.  I loathe golf courses that create difficulty through narrow fairways, tree planting, and fiercely manicured rough.  Lido sounds like the exact opposite: the ultimate battle of man vs. nature.  I have loved golf courses and holes where I have faced this sort of test.  13 at Prestwick and 12 at Addington come to mind: difficult holes, but ones where all of the challenge is presented by nature.

Bring it on!

[Kalen Braley]

I almost have visions of the early Pebble Beach days when they had those small faux sandy dunes around holes like 6 and 7.

I wish I could find some of those pictures again, but have seem them in a thread or two on here before.