Ballyneal G&HC, Holyoke, CO (Doak) - A Photo Tour - Hole 17 Posted

[Sean Leary]

Anyone think the green has perhaps too much movement and too much microcontour?

I played with someone who flew that right bunker from the back tee which is the most impressive drive I have ever seen on a golf course.

[Tom_Doak]

Anyone think the green has perhaps too much movement and too much microcontour?

Trust me, plenty of people think so.  I would probably even agree with them; the argument I yielded to was that it is a very short par-5, so it's okay to have a really severe green.  But, there is nothing on that green I would call a "microcontour."  They are all macro!

[Kalen Braley]

Anyone think the green has perhaps too much movement and too much microcontour?

I played with someone who flew that right bunker from the back tee which is the most impressive drive I have ever seen on a golf course.

Sean,

In answer to your 1st question, hell no.  I absolutely loved the green at 8 and how one could just have a short wedge in hand for the 3rd but still had to really execute and think thru what kind of shot you were going to play.

I wouldn't change a thing about #8...

[Sean Leary]

Anyone think the green has perhaps too much movement and too much microcontour?

Trust me, plenty of people think so.  I would probably even agree with them; the argument I yielded to was that it is a very short par-5, so it's okay to have a really severe green.  But, there is nothing on that green I would call a "microcontour."  They are all macro!

Fair enough. Where do you draw the line between micro and macro?

[Mark Saltzman]

Anyone think the green has perhaps too much movement and too much microcontour?

I played with someone who flew that right bunker from the back tee which is the most impressive drive I have ever seen on a golf course.

Sean,

My only comment with the 8th green would be that all the slopes made a back pin too easy.  Even into a bit of wind, the guys in my group were able to knock it up near the green in two (within about 40 yards).  From there, you just need to get the ball somewhere on those back slopes and it will run down to within a  dozen or so feet of a back pin.  And the collection area right loses some of its fear factor to a back pin - just grab a putter and get it riding one of those slopes.

I don't know if this is an issue with microcontours or macrocontours or neither.  Really it's just me nitpicking, as I said, this is one of my favorite par 5s anywhere.

[Sean Leary]

Anyone think the green has perhaps too much movement and too much microcontour?

I played with someone who flew that right bunker from the back tee which is the most impressive drive I have ever seen on a golf course.

Sean,

In answer to your 1st question, hell no.  I absolutely loved the green at 8 and how one could just have a short wedge in hand for the 3rd but still had to really execute and think thru what kind of shot you were going to play.

I wouldn't change a thing about #8...

Not saying I would either. I played it right before the official opening so the greens were understandable slow, so I haven't played it under current conditions. Seemed like it it was a bit "busy" for my preferences. This was the only green there that I felt that way about. I like severe greens as a Prairie Dunes guy so it isn't that.

I appreciate's Tom's tendency to push the envelope and he clearly did so here.

[Sean Leary]

Anyone think the green has perhaps too much movement and too much microcontour?

I played with someone who flew that right bunker from the back tee which is the most impressive drive I have ever seen on a golf course.

Sean,

My only comment with the 8th green would be that all the slopes made a back pin too easy.  Even into a bit of wind, the guys in my group were able to knock it up near the green in two (within about 40 yards).  From there, you just need to get the ball somewhere on those back slopes and it will run down to within a  dozen or so feet of a back pin.  And the collection area right loses some of its fear factor to a back pin - just grab a putter and get it riding one of those slopes.

I don't know if this is an issue with microcontours or macrocontours or neither.  Really it's just me nitpicking, as I said, this is one of my favorite par 5s anywhere.

Hi Mark,

Just curious, did you feel the same way about the backboards/sideboards at Chambers Bay where the are all over the place?

[Mark Saltzman]

Anyone think the green has perhaps too much movement and too much microcontour?

I played with someone who flew that right bunker from the back tee which is the most impressive drive I have ever seen on a golf course.

Sean,

My only comment with the 8th green would be that all the slopes made a back pin too easy.  Even into a bit of wind, the guys in my group were able to knock it up near the green in two (within about 40 yards).  From there, you just need to get the ball somewhere on those back slopes and it will run down to within a  dozen or so feet of a back pin.  And the collection area right loses some of its fear factor to a back pin - just grab a putter and get it riding one of those slopes.

I don't know if this is an issue with microcontours or macrocontours or neither.  Really it's just me nitpicking, as I said, this is one of my favorite par 5s anywhere.

Hi Mark,

Just curious, did you feel the same way about the backboards/sideboards at Chambers Bay where the are all over the place?

Sean,

No.  There may be pin locations like this at CB, but nothing that comes to mind.  Are there any at CB that you are thinking of in particular?  I mean maybe a front pin on 9 and aiming at the left bank, but it's not really the same.

[Sean Leary]

Mark,

Yes, 1-18 at CB.

Just kidding. There are a lot there 2,3, old 4,5,7,8,9,11,12,14,15, and 18 all have some sort of back or side board. They don't bother me as much as they used to as the course has gotten faster and sometimes it means trouble because it will roll off greens.

[Jeff Doerr]

Thanks for this journey Mark! Ballyneal captivates me like few other courses.

[Mark Saltzman]

Sean,

Yes, there are many sideboards and backboards at CB.  There are many at Ballyneal, Sand Hills, Prairie Club, and Dismal... and I love them --- in general.  They not only inspire options, shot-making and creativity, but they are plain fun.  So don't get me wrong, I have no issue with back/sideboards.

I only question the back/sideboards in play at the back of the 8th green at BN.  It is a short par 5 and one if its main defenses, I think, is its green.  As I wrote earlier, most will be coming into this green with wedge or less (a chip or a putter).  With so little club in hand, I question the need to have a bowl like the one at the back of the 8th green.  At least for me, these back/sideboards did not inspire creativity, but rather a shot where I knew if I hit the ball in the general vicinity of one of the backboards (which is fairly easy to do with LW in hand), I would have a short(ish) birdie putt.  Paradoxically, all of the undulations made the shot boring.

[RJ_Daley]

7 and 8 may be my favorite 2 consecutive holes in golf. 

[Scott Szabo]

It was on this hole with Mark and the back pin that he's referring to that I played my most memorable shot at BN.  I was about 20-30 yards short and slightly left of the green, essentially straight up the length of the green.  The obvious choice was the putter, so I gave it a shot.  It had to be about 60 yards or so, up and over all the mounds, to about 3 feet!  I had seen many over the years putting from all over the place and finally gave it a try.  The putter was pulled out many more times throughout the round (ala a certain Neil Regan) with surprising success.  I think BN may be MORE fun with only a handful of clubs rather than a full arsenal. 

[Mark Saltzman]

It was on this hole with Mark and the back pin that he's referring to that I played my most memorable shot at BN.  I was about 20-30 yards short and slightly left of the green, essentially straight up the length of the green.  The obvious choice was the putter, so I gave it a shot.  It had to be about 60 yards or so, up and over all the mounds, to about 3 feet!  I had seen many over the years putting from all over the place and finally gave it a try.  The putter was pulled out many more times throughout the round (ala a certain Neil Regan) with surprising success.  I think BN may be MORE fun with only a handful of clubs rather than a full arsenal. 

Scott, that was one heck of a shot.  The really interesting thing about it is that it is arguably more difficult to get to that back pin position from the left (where you have a long putt straight up the throat of the green) than from the right where you have a gully and mounding to contend with.  IIRC, you're putt had lots of humps and bumps and lots of slope to the right making it pretty darn tough to get into that back bowl, especially because the back and sideboards do not seem as receptive to shots from the angle you came in from.

[John Kirk]

Oh yeah, I eagled that bad boy once.  Faded a 4-wood to 3 feet into a leftish pin; there's a little backboard left of the green that will help a long shot, but not a short one.  Not that I could hit that shot today.

That day I was only 1 over after 6 from the back tees, and playing well, and I knew that you needed to make a move at #7 and #8.  I birdied 7, and after the eagle, I moved to 2 under.  The details are sketchy tonight, but I think I hung there with birdies on #11 and #12, and made a 12 foot, curling putt into the back center bowl (+12) on #18 for a 69, and held the course record for a precious 13 months, until Shane Bertsch came out from Denver and shot 67-68 one day.  Perhaps the greatest round I've ever played.

On #8, a drawn second shot seems suitable, but is subject to greater uncertainty.  The bounces are predictable short and left here, so fade it over the 60 yard bunker into a left pin, if you're in position and have that shot. 

There are at least three tough pins on the hole:  anywhere in the back right bowl, back left behind the ridge, or best of all, between the round mounds separated by just the right distance in the middle of the green.  Lonely men on the prairie, missing home.  If the pin's inbetween the mounds, short left in three shots is the way to make par.  Everywhere else is a bogey.

I once saw my friend Ryan Beaty drill a low driver over the big bunker, and played wedge in from 150 or so.  The wind was light that day.  Sean Leary can back that story up.  Ryan can really crank it.

I could go on and on, but I saw this hole evolve from rugged Wray dunesland into this photogenic darling which plays as good as it looks. It has to be one of the great modern short fives in golf.

[Scott Szabo]

John, Shane turned into quite a player, but wasn't always so.  I played a few rounds with him in high school.  I remember him shooting something like 74-84 at our State meet our senior year.  He played out of Evergreen HS along with Brett Dean, who went on to join Mickelson at ASU.  Brett seemed destined for greatness, but no one gave much thought to Shane, I'm afraid.  Great to see what's happening with Shane though.  Funny how things turn out sometimes.

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 9: Par 4, 362 Yards

Another hourglass fairway...the main thing is just to get the ball in play off the tee with whatever club makes you happy. The green is generally receptive although there are two very tough hole locations, at the very front and on the back right shelf




The fairway on 9 gets narrower the farther you hit your tee shot and is accentuated by a bunker jutting into the fairway 100 yards from the green.  This hole plays really different depending on the wind.  Into the wind, most can hit driver without fear of reaching the bunker.  Downwind, one must choose the club off the tee carefully and decide whether or not to challenge the neck of the fairway left of the bunker (if successful, ball could kick hard forward toward the green).




The approach grew on me to become one of my favorites on the course.  The first time I played it, I thought it was simple and boring.  Wedge in hand and into a little wind there is nothing to the approach.  Well, 5 rounds later and 5 approaches with wedges from the fairway, I never got closer than 25 feet.  This is such a cleverly designed green that will repel the ball away from so many hole locations.




Kyle's picture from behind the 9th green shows the slopes around the green.  I wrote earlier in this thread that a front-right pin was likely the most 3-putted pin at BN.  Here's why: It is almost impossible to get at all close to.  The smart play is 20-feet left of the hole, up the throat of the opening in front of the green.  The only way to get close to the pin is to have the ball almost die on the slope short-right of the green and have it funnel down to the pin. Leaving it short of that hill is dead.  If the ball lands on the hill it kicks to the back of the green,  leaving a 50-foot putt that has to deal with the two mounds on the green.

Back-left pins, on the other hand, are very birdieable as almost everything kicks toward it.

[Steve Kline]

I think this is probably the weakest hole at BN. There is basically only one area to tee off from. While you can challenge the bunker off the tee it is a pretty difficult shot. So, under almost any wind condition you are hitting your second from the same spot. This hole seems to lack the options and variety that the others have.

[Brandon Urban]

Steve,

I agree with you on the strategy off of the tee... and if our host said it was the worst hole at Ballyneal, it must be!
I agree with Mark and think the fun comes in on the second shot. It took me three days before I realized how short of the green you have to land it to get anywhere close to a front hole location. That includes low run ups with a 5 iron and high and soft wedge shots. Nothing wants to stay on the front of that green. I think it was my last of seven tries that I actually took about two clubs less and ended up ten feet away from the front left pin!
All I can say is if that is the weakest hole at Ballyneal, that is one helluva a golf course!

[Kalen Braley]

While I would agree that it wasn't one of the better holes on the course, I didn't think #9 was the worst either.


I liked that the player was presented with the dilemma of a more narrow landing area if they wanted to have a short shot in with a view to the green.  Or the player can be safe, keep it well away from the bunkers but have a longer approach that is more often than not blind.

I thought the green complex was interesting too because not only would the internal humps either work for or against you, but it sits in a partial bowl so a whole mess of different type approach shots can be attempted here.

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 10: Par 4, 509 Yards

There is a hidden bit of fairway on the upper right for aggressive drivers, but be sure you’re on the right tee to make that carry! Many players will have a blind or semi-blind second shot from the hollow on the left; keep the shot on line and you’ll be fine."





The 10th at Ballyneal is a great example of a hole that asks the player to hit a very precise tee shot to have a chance at 3, but there is plenty of width to accommodate those players for whom a perfect tee shot is a rare thing.  The ideal line is over the right-side fairway bunkers, which are about 220 yards to carry from the 450 yard tee box.  The bailout is to the left (where the fairway is probably 60 yards wide) and tee shots will collect into a massive bowl, leaving a blind 180 yard approach.  Tee shots that manage to find the small piece of fairway to the right will kick forward leaving at most a mid-iron approach to a green that is in full view.








From short of the right bunker ~200 yards from the green.  It is reasonable to lay-up to this position to leave a clear approach to the green rather than play the approach from the bowl in the fairway.





From short of the green, 2 bunkers to the right come into view.  Playing blind from the left, these bunkers are very much in play.

The general slope of the green is from front-left to back-right again making it very difficult for tee shots not hit in the correct position to make 3 or 4.  Further, large slopes on the left side of the green, because of the angle of approach, will serve to kick approaches from the left off the right side of the green, but they will assist approaches from the right by kicking them onto the green.





From behind

[Jim Colton]

Number 10 is probably my favorite hole on what is an excellent back nine. They've expanded the landing area past the right bunker a little bit but it hasn't really helped me much with a left-to-right shot shape.

I think the run-up and green is where this firm and fast course is at it's firm-and-fastiest (made-up word)

[Morgan Clawson]

I think it's interesting how some of the photos make it look like the hole plays downhill and others make it look like it plays uphill.
Or, maybe it downhill from the tee and then uphill to the green 

[Brad Isaacs]

Number 10 is probably my favorite hole on what is an excellent back nine. They've expanded the landing area past the right bunker a little bit but it hasn't really helped me much with a left-to-right shot shape.

I think the run-up and green is where this firm and fast course is at it's firm-and-fastiest (made-up word)

Jim,
Not my favorite hole.  I've had to learn to play it and rely upon that fastiest runup primarily on the leftiest side. javascript:void(0); Tough hole but since learning to play it, not the hardiest hole.  ( that still is #6 or #17 into a wind)

Brad

[Steve Kline]

I think the right side landing area is too small. Plus the shot from the left side if the fairway is not that bad. I think I like 12, 13, and 17 better on the back.