Ballyneal G&HC, Holyoke, CO (Doak) - A Photo Tour - Hole 17 Posted

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 6: Par 4, 480 Yards

The longest and toughest par 4 on the course; into the wind, you should be content to get up short of the green in two and try to save par with a chip and a putt. Very tricky green...if the hole is on the left you can use the slopes to your advantage, but when it’s top right you just have to play a precise shot onto the plateau.




Easily the most difficult hole at Ballyneal and often into the wind.  From the 480 yards tees, one can see little more than the large dune in front of the tee, though a right pin can be seen, tempting the player to hit his tee ball just a little more left than he should.

There is also a tee some 40 yards forward and to the right that gives a clear view of the hole and no forced carry.

There is also a really cool 'tee' from behind the 5th green, creating more angle off the tee, more forced carry and a 520 yard par 4.




From the start of the fairway one can see that there is plenty of room right (and it is the preferred angle of approach to the green) and nothing but trouble left.  A deep bunker guards the left side side and shots that find it have no chance of reaching the green.  As pictured, a small bowl on the left side of the fairway serves to gather tee shots from the back tee towards the bunker.  There really is little reward for challenging the left side.




The approach from the centre is certainly preferable to...




an approach from the bunkers left...




There is plenty of room to run approach shots from the right onto the green, but




Approaches from the left must deal with this pesky bunker

[Mark Saltzman]

I guess everyone else on here made nuthin but bogeys on 6 (like me) and don't have much to say about it... that's OK, hole 7 coming up...!

[Scott Szabo]

With all that room to the right I don't know why anyone woukd hit it in that left bunker, let alone doing it twice in consecutive plays (eh Mark)? Sorry, couldn't resist!

[Eric Smith]

Like everyone else who has played there, I love the no tees concept at Ballyneal. During a late evening emergency nine, our threesome decided to play No. 6 from two or three paces off of the 5th green. What are those darker green rings you see from time to time on fescue fairways - ringworm? Anyway, there was one of those circles in the grass just off the green, so we tee'd em up from inside there and it was an awesome tee shot! That gnarly bunker on the left was now blocking everything so the play was out to the right over the grass ridge. I challenged the thing anyway and paid the price with my ball finding the corner of the bunker surrounded by yucca roots. No chance!

I have a cool pic of Mike Whitaker putting from the right of the green, trying to get it up and over the knob to a right pin -- but it is on my computer at the office. I'll add it back to this post on Monday.

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 7: Par 4, 352 Yards

Lots of players are tempted to drive it up in front of this green, but it’s easy to leave yourself with an awkward distance and a bad angle. A safe tee shot to the right lets you use the bank at the left side of the green to contain your second shot and bank it back close to the hole. The bank can also come in handy on recovery shots from anywhere to the right of the green




The famous "E" green is found at Ballyneal's seventh.  As you stroll down the 4th fairway, the clever player will have the foresight to take a peak over at the green on 7 to locate the day's pin location.  Pin location has a major impact on the decision from the tee.

Even though the hole is 350 yards on the card, it will be reachable by many.  Playing downwind, shots that carry the left bunkers (about 235 yards) will bound and funnel all the way down to the front portion of the green (though in no way does this guarantee a 3!). 

Players not wanting to try to carry the bunkers have the choice of either laying up short of them (I can't believe anyone would ever do this on purpose) or playing right of them, leaving one of the most fun wedge shots one will ever play.


From front-left portion of tee box:




From back-right portion of tee box:




From short of the fairway bunkers the pin is in view, though the significant contouring is not. Hopefully the golfer who finds himself here knows his way around the golf course and is not a BN virgin!




Just right of the bunker:




There are so many options on the approach.  Low and running or high and spinning?  Right at it or off a sideboard (or backboard)?  Make a decision and stick with it because this is not the green on which one would ever want to be out of position.  The bunker left, in particular, is a really bad spot to a front or middle pin.

The green is really in three sections, with the middle section forming something of a bowl.  While the internal contouring of each section is fairly flat and approaches close to the hole leave simple putts, getting from one section to another is one heckuva ride!  Front to middle or middle to front, throw the ball up on the slope left and watch it run.  From to back section, I dunno, good luck I guess!




Kyle's picture of the area just short-left of the green shows a small flat area that will leave a very difficult up and down.  If you're going to go for the green, be sure to get it there as the approach from this angle is severely downhill and very difficult to get close.




From just short-right of the green to a middle pin, you can (1) putt it and watch it come off the slope left, (2) hit a little bump with a 5-iron skirting the bunker, or (3) flop it up over the bunker and have it come back off the backboard.






The view from behind (from the 4th fairway)

[Mark Saltzman]

With all that room to the right I don't know why anyone woukd hit it in that left bunker, let alone doing it twice in consecutive plays (eh Mark)? Sorry, couldn't resist!

Scott, after my little zing about the bunker on 4, I can't believe it took you this long to point this out!

[Scott Szabo]

Mark, just waiting for the right time to bust them out is all.  I gotta be careful because I think you've got more on me than I have on you based on the way I played!

[Jim Colton]

Mark,

  I actually find #17 to be much more difficult than #6, but that's probably more of a function of my game than anything else.

  I believe at one point, the proposed 5th green was going to play to the base of that dune where the back, back tees are on #6, and the 6th tee was going to be on top of the dune. But that was scrapped. I have climbed up that dune and the 6th would probably go from one of the least photographed tee shots to one of the most if a tee box was up there, not that should be a consideration.

[Mark Saltzman]

Mark,

  I actually find #17 to be much more difficult than #6, but that's probably more of a function of my game than anything else.

  I believe at one point, the proposed 5th green was going to play to the base of that dune where the back, back tees are on #6, and the 6th tee was going to be on top of the dune. But that was scrapped. I have climbed up that dune and the 6th would probably go from one of the least photographed tee shots to one of the most if a tee box was up there, not that should be a consideration.

Jim,

Any idea why a the tee wasn't put there anyway?  Too awkward a routing or too difficult a walk up to the top of the dune?  Do you think putting a tee box there is still a possibility?

[Steve Kline]

I don't 6 iseasily the hardest hole either. It all comes down to the wind you play in. If there has been any wind when I played it six down wind. My last trip I was hitting sand wedge into the green on one of the days. I think 10, 14 (i know that seems odd but this hole just gets me), and 17 are equally as hard. Now that I think about I think the back is harder than front.

The E green is really cool. It is a ton of fun to play and hit all kinds of shots on.

[JNC Lyon]

7 is my favorite golf hole of all time.  Period.

[Tom_Doak]

Mark,

  I actually find #17 to be much more difficult than #6, but that's probably more of a function of my game than anything else.

  I believe at one point, the proposed 5th green was going to play to the base of that dune where the back, back tees are on #6, and the 6th tee was going to be on top of the dune. But that was scrapped. I have climbed up that dune and the 6th would probably go from one of the least photographed tee shots to one of the most if a tee box was up there, not that should be a consideration.

Jim,

Any idea why a the tee wasn't put there anyway?  Too awkward a routing or too difficult a walk up to the top of the dune?  Do you think putting a tee box there is still a possibility?

It's a bad climb, and also it's no fun to play from an elevated tee like that into the teeth of the wind.  Photographers don't need a tee to take a picture, although, I have never seen a photo from up there.

[Jim Colton]

[Kalen Braley]

7 is my favorite golf hole of all time.  Period.

Almost a +1 here.  I can think of no other short par 4 that I like better as #7 is hands down my favorite two shotter in the "short division".

The fairway bunkering, the options off the tee, the strategy of the approach....

..and that green complex is a one of a kind and on our second round thru there, my playing partner and I spent a good 30 minutes trying different shots to different locations.  Wicked cool stuff!

Tom do you mind sharing with the group how this hole and more specifically the green came to be?  Was it one of the 1st ones you saw out there?

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

How long is the green? Looks 50+ yards.

[Mark Saltzman]

How long is the green? Looks 50+ yards.

I remember hearing/reading that the green is 43 yards deep, though I could be wrong.

[Brett Hochstein]

What is the exact grassing and soil at Ballyneal?  Is it all sand there?  It looks like fescue and the other poverty grasses are present, which would be architecturally logical, but how much exactly?  Also what was the initial mix/blend compared to what is present? 

Everything from these photos looks pretty awesome

[Adam Clayman]

Kalen, The 7th green was not originally seen at all. The story goes like this; Originally, the 7th green was to be close to where the back tee on #8 is. But, after getting turned down to build the 'E' green at Sebonack, Tom was out there with Brian(?) and a really small piece of equipment. Typically too small to build a green. But, it turned out perfect to make the sharp cuts the bunkers have to build the negative space of the E.

I'm sure Tom will correct anything I have goofed, or, failed to recount.

Mark, On 6, The key to getting close to most pins is to flirt with the front left bunker. Also, since right of the green is death, you are better off flirting with it anyway. Any ball long of the bunker has a much easier up and down than anything right. #6 is such a diverse hole depending on conditions. I've hit everything in there from driver to 8 iron and made par. The satisfaction level is quite high when par is achieved. And yes, the routing would've been ruined had the tee been placed up on the dune. It would've been a mistake of Trumpian proportions. 

[Eric Smith]

The ultimate sideboard / backboard depending on your angle of attack.

[Kalen Braley]

Adam,

Interesting tidbit of info.  Its also interesting to note that if one plays up the left side of #4 on the way to the green, you can get a preview of the green from behind it.  Its possible to airmail the 7th green with the approach shot and end up on that same 4th fairway.

I too agree with Eric, that sideboard left of the green can be used in various ways...even to get from one part of the E to the other part if you can't take a direct route as the bunker/junk would be in the way.

[Adam Clayman]

Having that opening has more importance than what just meets the eye. The lack of a backdrop, provides a lack of a frame of reference and will mess with one's approach feel. It changes what the yardage looks like versus what the actual might be.

Those rings are a ring fungus. They are inherent in the soil and very common. If you watch the Open Championship, you saw them in Sandwich, too.

[Tom_Doak]

Kalen, The 7th green was not originally seen at all. The story goes like this; Originally, the 7th green was to be close to where the back tee on #8 is. But, after getting turned down to build the 'E' green at Sebonack, Tom was out there with Brian(?) and a really small piece of equipment. Typically too small to build a green. But, it turned out perfect to make the sharp cuts the bunkers have to build the negative space of the E.

I'm sure Tom will correct anything I have goofed, or, failed to recount.

The original routing did have the 7th green up by #8 tee, but that would have meant #8 tee would be in the valley to the left of where it now sits, on a bad angle.  So, I had decided to put the green for #7 down in the valley where it is now, but I hadn't figured out what sort of green to build there.

If you look at the green site carefully, you'll see there is nothing there to suggest the actual shape of the green.  It was a narrow slot with high ridges to both sides, and pretty much dead straight from back to front.  The biggest problem with it (to me) was that there wasn't any good solution for where to stop the grassing lines ... the banks were so steep that it seemed silly to make them fairway and having everything collect down into the green, but the native rough wouldn't perform well on the banks just above the putting surface, and stopping it halfway up was always going to look awkward.  Finally, I decided that the bank on the left wasn't so high that I couldn't go up and over with the fairway grass -- and once I made that decision, it screamed "backboard" to me and I immediately thought of the 7th green at Crystal Downs, which I'd always wanted to build a version of somewhere.  That also solved the grassing problem on the other side, by suggesting a bunker between the native and the green.  We built it that same afternoon; Brian dug the bunkers with a trackhoe, placed the material in the green to make the little tiers, and tracked it in.  Never had the dozer on it.

Adam, regarding Sebonack, the original version of the 16th green was also based on the hole at Crystal Downs; but Mr. Nicklaus wasn't comfortable with not being able to putt from any point to any other, so it was neutered a bit, and truthfully didn't turn out very well.  The client jumped at the subsequent chance to move the green back another 75 yards not long after the course was finished ... what's left of the original green is now part of the approach.  I was happy to let it go at that point, because I'd jumped on the chance to build a much better version at Ballyneal.

P.S.  The ring fungus most likely emanates from a buried yucca stump.

[Anthony Gray]

  Looks like a fun green. Would a player consider chipping on the 17th green?

  Anthony

[Adam Clayman]

Tom, Thanks for the clarifications. I suggested to Chris, that a version of the 7th at Crystal, might solve his problems with the current 13th at DR. Have you looked at it?

I didn't know Sandwich had Yucca?

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 8: Par 5, 515 Yards

This fairway narrows to hourglass dimensions at just over 300 yards from the tee, so even when it’s reachable in two, pulling driver takes on some risk. The safe play to the green is to stay left of the flag, since most of the green is terraced up from left to right."




This is one of my favorite par 5s I have ever played.  To a large extent, wind direction dictates club choice off the tee.  A large series of bunkers cut into the fairway 300 yards from the tee, so downwind, less than driver will be advisable for some players.  Into the wind, it's a driver for just about everyone.

Aside from just choosing a club, the player will also want to choose if they may be going for the green in 2.  If not, a tee shot up the left is much preferred as it leaves a clear view for the second shot.  If you want to go for it in two, the play is up the right as this leaves a much preferred angle into the green, though the shot will be completely blind.  As my caddie told me, though, any tee shot in the "bowl of achievement" is just fine - this is a collection area in the left side of the fairway about 250 yards from the tee.

The tee shot is actually easier than it looks.  A short bunker on the right, as well as bunkers on the left, give a feeling of narrowness, but there is plenty of width.  The contouring at the edges of the fairway also serves to keep the ball in play.







The fairway on 8 has an unbelievable amount of mounding, probably the most of any at Ballyneal.




The view from the left side of the fairway, about 260 yards out.  From here it is just about impossible to hit the green, though the layup is in clear view and a simple shot.  If the player wants to give the green a shot from here, they must challenge the left bunker as the green tilts to the right near the green. 




A look at the bunker in the fairway / a view from a tee shot up the right.  From here the green is completely blind (obviously), though the angle allows the player to skirt the left bunker and run a shot onto the green.




A perfectly placed lay-up leaves a 75-yard approach from this spot.  A front-left pin is there for the taking, though anything middle or back must be played carefully as the collection area short-right of the green is not to be messed with.  This collection area is where many well-struck shots going for the green in 2 will end up.








A back-left pin though very intimidating when hitting the approach is actually fairly simple to get close to.  Severe slopes at the back, right and left combine to form a bowl at the back portion of the green.  While it is very difficult to get a ball stone dead to a pin, it is fairly simple to get it within 15 feet.  Get the ball back there somewhere, sit back and enjoy the ride.